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When was the earth really created? #124805
04/17/10 02:02 AM
04/17/10 02:02 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
I've started this thread because the discussions in my FF thread is getting out of hand and is really a complete distraction from that thread's true focus.

Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: JCS] #124817
04/17/10 06:48 PM
04/17/10 06:48 PM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
I came across this rather amazing statement. The ideas presented are quite curious in regard to pre existence.

http://www.asktherabbi.org/DisplayQuestion.asp?ID=216

Last edited by JCS; 04/17/10 06:52 PM.
Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: JCS] #124825
04/18/10 01:23 AM
04/18/10 01:23 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
A quote from Ellen White:
Quote:
The Creation of the Earth

The work of creation cannot be explained by science. What science can explain the mystery of life? {MH 414.1}
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3.


"I form the light, and create darkness: . . .
I the Lord do all these things. . . .
I have made the earth,
And created man upon it:
I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens,
And all their host have I commanded."
"When I call unto them, they stand up together."
Isaiah 45:7-12; 48:13. {MH 414.2}
In the creation of the earth, God was not indebted to pre-existing matter. "He spake, and it was; . . . He commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:9. All things, material or spiritual, stood up before the Lord Jehovah at His voice and were created for His own purpose. The heavens and all
415
the host of them, the earth and all things therein, came into existence by the breath of His mouth. {MH 414.3}
In the creation of man was manifest the agency of a personal God. When God had made man in His image, the human form was perfect in all its arrangements, but it was without life. Then a personal, self-existing God breathed into that form the breath of life, and man became a living, intelligent being. All parts of the human organism were set in action. The heart, the arteries, the veins, the tongue, the hands, the feet, the senses, the faculties of the mind, all began their work, and all were placed under law. Man became a living soul. Through Christ the Word, a personal God created man and endowed him with intelligence and power. {MH 415.1}
Our substance was not hid from Him when we were made in secret; His eyes saw our substance, yet being imperfect, and in His book all our members were written when as yet there were none of them. {MH 415.2}
Above all lower orders of being, God designed that man, the crowning work of His creation, should express His thought and reveal His glory. But man is not to exalt himself as God.


"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord. . . .
Serve the Lord with gladness:
Come before His presence with singing.
Know ye that the Lord He is God:
It is He that hath made us, and His we are;
We are His people, and the sheep of His pasture.
Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise:
Be thankful unto Him, and bless His name."
"Exalt the Lord our God,
And worship at His holy hill;
For the Lord our God is holy."
Psalm 100:1-4, margin; 99:9.
416
{MH 415.3}
God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will.


"In the creation of the earth, God was not indebted to pre-existing matter."

Last edited by JCS; 04/18/10 01:25 AM.
Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: JCS] #124826
04/18/10 01:32 AM
04/18/10 01:32 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." "For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:6, 9. The Bible recognizes no long ages in which the earth was evolved from chaos. CE 191

Another clear statement from SOP.

Last edited by JCS; 04/18/10 01:33 AM.
Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: JCS] #124828
04/18/10 01:51 AM
04/18/10 01:51 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
JCS,

God was not "indebted" to the clay when He formed Adam either. God was not "indebted" to Adam's rib when He formed Eve. The statement is actually more supportive of your opposition here than you might realize, for had Ellen White wished to say that God did not use any pre-existent matter, then this would have been an excellent time to do so. Instead, what we have is her statement that while He may have used such matter, it was not necessary for Him to do so.

I firmly believe that had God wished to do so, He could have simply said "Let there be Adam!" There was no need for Him to get His hands muddy. And this is the concept Ellen White is teaching as well.

Believing that pre-existing matter was here when God began to create a livable planet from it and put life on it, about 6000 years ago, is not at all akin to believing in "long ages in which the earth was evolved from chaos." There is no evolution here over millions of years.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: JCS] #124829
04/18/10 01:56 AM
04/18/10 01:56 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Quote:
I have been shown that, without Bible history, geology can prove nothing. Relics found in the earth do give evidence of a state of things differing in many respects from the present. But the time of their existence, and how long a period these things have been in the earth, are only to be understood by Bible history. It may be innocent to conjecture beyond Bible history, if our suppositions do not contradict the facts found in the sacred Scriptures. But when men leave the word of God in regard to the history of creation, and seek to account for God's creative works upon natural principles, they are upon a boundless ocean of uncertainty. Just how God accomplished the work of creation in six literal days, he has never revealed to mortals. His creative works are just as incomprehensible as his existence. {1SP 88.1}


Quote:
Chap. 14 - Science and the Bible

Since the book of nature and the book of revelation bear the impress of the same master mind, they cannot but speak in harmony. By different methods, and in different languages, they witness to the same great truths. Science is ever discovering new wonders; but she brings from her research nothing that, rightly understood, conflicts with divine revelation. The book of nature and the written word shed light upon each other. They make us acquainted with God by teaching us something of the laws through which He works. {Ed 128.1}
Inferences erroneously drawn from facts observed in nature have, however, led to supposed conflict between science and revelation; and in the effort to restore harmony, interpretations of Scripture have been adopted that undermine and destroy the force of the word of God. Geology has been thought to contradict the literal interpretation of the Mosaic record of the creation. Millions of years, it is claimed, were required for the evolution of the earth from chaos; and in order to accommodate the Bible to this supposed revelation of science, the days of creation are assumed to have been vast, indefinite periods, covering thousands or even millions of years.
129
{Ed 128.2}
Such a conclusion is wholly uncalled for. The Bible record is in harmony with itself and with the teaching of nature. Of the first day employed in the work of creation is given the record, "The evening and the morning were the first day." Genesis 1:5. And the same in substance is said of each of the first six days of creation week. Each of these periods Inspiration declares to have been a day consisting of evening and morning, like every other day since that time. In regard to the work of creation itself the divine testimony is, "He spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:9. With Him who could thus call into existence unnumbered worlds, how long a time would be required for the evolution of the earth from chaos? In order to account for His works, must we do violence to His word? {Ed 129.1}


Quote:
Chapter VIII. - Disguised Infidelity.

I was then carried back to the creation, and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God, in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created." God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh
86
day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {1SP 85.1}
When God spake his law with an audible voice from Sinai, he introduced the Sabbath by saying, "Remember the Sabbath-day to keep it holy." He then declares definitely what shall be done on the six days, and what shall not be done on the seventh. He then, in giving the reason for thus observing the week, points them back to his example on the first seven days of time. "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath-day and hallowed it." This reason appears beautiful and forcible when we understand the record of creation to mean literal days. The first six days of each week are given to man in which to labor, because God employed the same period of the first week in the work of creation. The seventh day God has reserved as a day of rest, in commemoration of his rest during the same period of time after he had performed the work of creation in six days. {1SP 86.1}
But the infidel supposition that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in
87
disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom. {1SP 86.2}

Last edited by JCS; 04/18/10 01:57 AM.
Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: JCS] #124830
04/18/10 02:08 AM
04/18/10 02:08 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Greenie,

If you still believe in the SOP why do you still believe in pre-existing matter? (matter existing before the week of creation)

Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: JCS] #124831
04/18/10 02:25 AM
04/18/10 02:25 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: JCS
Greenie,

If you still believe in the SOP why do you still believe in pre-existing matter? (matter existing before the week of creation)

Because I happen to believe very firmly in the Bible as God's inspired Word, and it tells me that the matter pre-existed Creation Week. It tells me that Jesus, the Word, created all things. It tells me that other worlds, especially that where God's throne is, exist. It tells me that those places existed before our earth was fashioned.

It does NOT tell me how long God's throne has been in His Heaven, nor does it tell me how long Lucifer lived before he sinned, or for how long the angels have existed.

Guess what? Ellen White does not fill in this information for us either, so I trust that God does not think it necessary for me to know these things.

JCS, you are grasping at straws with trying to find EGW quotes to support your position. The Bible does not teach, Ellen does not teach, nor do I teach anything about "seven vast, indefinite periods." I am not teaching that "the days of creation are assumed to have been vast, indefinite periods, covering thousands or even millions of years."

You quoted this from her: "But the time of their existence, and how long a period these things have been in the earth, are only to be understood by Bible history. It may be innocent to conjecture beyond Bible history, if our suppositions do not contradict the facts found in the sacred Scriptures."

I have yet to see you find any proof from the Bible that there was no water before God created Light that first day of Creation Week. If you can do just this one thing, i.e. contradict my view with a convincing proof from the Scriptures, I will be forced to adopt your view.

That's the make or break with me. If you can prove from the Scriptures, and from them only, that there was NO WATER before Day 1, then I will concede that your understanding is more correct than mine.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 04/18/10 02:26 AM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: Green Cochoa] #124832
04/18/10 03:18 AM
04/18/10 03:18 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Quote:
I have yet to see you find any proof from the Bible that there was no water before God created Light that first day of Creation Week. If you can do just this one thing, i.e. contradict my view with a convincing proof from the Scriptures, I will be forced to adopt your view.


If I understand the ground rules correctly, I can't use Ellen White to prove anything, only the cannonized Bible.

That's pretty interesting considering the older argument that no one can successfully discern the genuine meaning of anything from scripture due to it's age, language, and multiple possible word definitions.

If it wasn't for all of that, Exodus 20:11 would've already broadsided this concept like a U-boat's torpedo violently impacting the fragile hull of a simple frigate.

I'll foolishly try anyway. If anyone else has opinions on this subject, feel free to interject.

Re: When was the earth really created? [Re: JCS] #124833
04/18/10 05:03 AM
04/18/10 05:03 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: JCS
If I understand the ground rules correctly, I can't use Ellen White to prove anything, only the cannonized Bible.

This "ground rule" comes from Mrs. White herself, which is why I think it fair to follow said rule. You quoted her statement in your own post, and I will re-quote the relevant portion of it here:
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I have been shown that, without Bible history, geology can prove nothing. Relics found in the earth do give evidence of a state of things differing in many respects from the present. But the time of their existence, and how long a period these things have been in the earth, are only to be understood by Bible history.


Originally Posted By: JCS
That's pretty interesting considering the older argument that no one can successfully discern the genuine meaning of anything from scripture due to it's age, language, and multiple possible word definitions.


I think you made this "older argument." Anyhow, it was not me. There are some words which, it is true, we do not understand. Words like "leviathan" and "unicorn." These cases are, however, the exception and not the rule. Words like "water" and "light" are fairly straight-forward, as are words like "day" and "night," "earth" and "seas." The latter terms are straight-forward because God Himself defined them within Genesis 1.

Originally Posted By: JCS
If it wasn't for all of that, Exodus 20:11 would've already broadsided this concept like a U-boat's torpedo violently impacting the fragile hull of a simple frigate.

Your "frigate" got outclassed by a simple fishing boat in which the Master slept. His word controlled the elements, and by this same Word were they created AND NAMED. That God employs those names in Exodus 20:11 should not surprise us. To find out what He gave those names to, read Genesis 1.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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