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Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
#124662
04/10/10 03:11 AM
04/10/10 03:11 AM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Florida, USA
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Sometimes thinking we are doing what is needed, we demonize certain issues such as abortion which sometimes people fall into through bad choice or fear and peer pressure. To use such a broad brush on a delicate subject as some Christians do, has potential to do great harm, and bring derision and/or seperate a brother or sister from the body of Christ. When someone has fallen into sin or made a awful mistake and looks for support to over sin and to confess and repent, what is a Christian supposed to do. Certainly not seperate themselves from them and beat their chest and declare what a terrible sin the person has done and what a tremendous punishment awaits them.
Should we be one of those who picked up stones in those who accused the woman who had sinned, yet found out they carried great sin of their own, and failed to recognized it till Christ wrote it out in the sand for them, or is there another way rather than stoning the sinner...
Last edited by Richard; 04/10/10 03:12 AM.
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Re: Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
[Re: Rick H]
#124663
04/10/10 07:30 AM
04/10/10 07:30 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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What about the inconsistency involved where the likelihood of stoning a sinner is depending on both how visible it is as well as on how far removed from ourselves it is (sometimes how far removed from our pet self image it is)? For example, christians like to stone those who have abortions, homosexuals and women called to the pastors work. Things easily observed and avoided. But no one started a crusade against those who gossip, tell lies, maintain quarrels or are arrogant. Maybe because going after those sins would to easily expose the beam in the christians own eye?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
[Re: vastergotland]
#124666
04/10/10 11:48 AM
04/10/10 11:48 AM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Florida, USA
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Many directions this can go, but lets focus on what to do with sinners who clearly have transgressed or assisted others to sin. How are we to deal with those who advocate or want to do what is clearly a sin, in the case of abortion, murder. How do we:
1) Make them aware of the sin. 2) Allow them a chance to repent/confess the sin. 3) Help them to overcome the sin. 4) Assist them in bringing it to Christ to cleanse them of the sin.
As it is so much easier just to throw the 'stone' and do nothing for the brother or sister.....
Last edited by Richard; 04/10/10 11:52 AM.
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Re: Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
[Re: Rick H]
#124668
04/10/10 01:13 PM
04/10/10 01:13 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I'm not wishing to sidetrack or detract from this discussion in any way, but I would like to point out the symbolism of stoning, because I believe it is quite relevant to this discussion.
Naturally, we do not literally stone people today. However, one might ask if we should follow its symbolism. Consider the following...
God's commandments were written upon stone. Stones are hard, unmerciful, and enduring, just like God's law. The law knows no mercy--and by it all sinners stand condemned to death. Jesus came to die that death on the sinner's behalf in order to fulfill the law, because even He could not change the law.
God used tables of stone to represent this enduring nature of the law. In Isaiah 58:13-14, the Sabbath is likened to a stone. "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath..." (Isaiah) and "They [angels] shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone" (Psalm 91:12). In other words, we should not "kick against the pricks," and God's angels will help His people to keep His laws, without trampling upon them. (Trampling upon the Sabbath law is likened to dashing one's foot upon a stone.) Even Jesus, the chief cornerstone--whose character is represented by the law, is likened to a stone of stumbling (Isaiah 8:14, 1 Peter 2:8).
Stoning, it seems, represented in literal form what we now speak of figuratively in modern English, saying "throw the book at them!" It represented having the law cast at one's person, the very law which condemned the sinner.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#124691
04/12/10 06:21 PM
04/12/10 06:21 PM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Florida, USA
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I'm not wishing to sidetrack or detract from this discussion in any way, but I would like to point out the symbolism of stoning, because I believe it is quite relevant to this discussion.
Naturally, we do not literally stone people today. However, one might ask if we should follow its symbolism. Consider the following...
God's commandments were written upon stone. Stones are hard, unmerciful, and enduring, just like God's law. The law knows no mercy--and by it all sinners stand condemned to death. Jesus came to die that death on the sinner's behalf in order to fulfill the law, because even He could not change the law.
God used tables of stone to represent this enduring nature of the law. In Isaiah 58:13-14, the Sabbath is likened to a stone. "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath..." (Isaiah) and "They [angels] shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone" (Psalm 91:12). In other words, we should not "kick against the pricks," and God's angels will help His people to keep His laws, without trampling upon them. (Trampling upon the Sabbath law is likened to dashing one's foot upon a stone.) Even Jesus, the chief cornerstone--whose character is represented by the law, is likened to a stone of stumbling (Isaiah 8:14, 1 Peter 2:8).
Stoning, it seems, represented in literal form what we now speak of figuratively in modern English, saying "throw the book at them!" It represented having the law cast at one's person, the very law which condemned the sinner.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. So my brother, when you see a member say that they are going to get a abortion or help someone get a abortion, how do you handle it. Do you confront, stay quiet, or go get 2 other members.....
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Re: Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
[Re: Rick H]
#124696
04/13/10 01:25 AM
04/13/10 01:25 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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So my brother, when you see a member say that they are going to get a abortion or help someone get a abortion, how do you handle it. Do you confront, stay quiet, or go get 2 other members..... Personally? I see abortion as anything but a cut-and-dried issue, and I would leave such up to individual conscience. The real sin, in most cases, was what led to the pregnancy. In any case, I have never ever heard anyone tell me that they planned to get an abortion, and I do not honestly know what I would do in that case. I think it might depend on how well I knew the person. If you do not know someone, it is hard to confront them without totally alienating them. I did have an interesting case a few weeks ago... I had been very discouraged. During the week the pastor, who never attends the adult Sabbath School class because he is leading the youth, had informed me that my comments in Sabbath school were out of line. I honestly have no idea what he referred to, as most of my comments are scripture-based. I do, now and then, disagree with the lesson quarterly and/or its authors. But I really do not know where the pastor had heard about my comments. Anyhow, I was really down. That Sabbath I was on duty, and went early to the church to open things up and make preparations. One of the teachers came in wearing the shortest mini-skirt I had ever seen her wear, and she stood up on the platform to practice for leading the singing. We don't meet in a church, it's an auditorium much more like a theater, with sloping floor and folding bucket seats down to the front where the stage stands about four feet above the floor. So, anyone sitting in the front seats especially is looking up at an angle from below those on the platform. If she had been a student, it might be one thing, but as a teacher, her influence is magnified. I do not ordinarily speak to people about how they dress, but in this case I made an exception. I told her about this Bible verse: Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon. (Exodus 20:28) That is important enough that God gave those instructions just after the Ten Commandments. I realize our church _does_ have steps up to the platform. We cannot change the building. But we certainly do not need to risk having our nakedness "discovered thereon" by wearing a miniskirt at such an altitude! After telling her about the verse, I explained the fact that people would be sitting down there below her, and that it would not be a pretty sight. I fear I laid it out rather plainly, but as a church leader who was that Sabbath on duty, I felt I had to say something. When I told my mother about it later, she said I should have said nothing, because Mrs. White tells us not to speak to the "sisters" about dress. She said the outward appearance might change, but not the heart. Something like that--I have yet to see the EGW statement in this regard. Anyhow, I felt bad for having said anything. However, having spoken to the lady once, I have no intention of ever addressing the issue with her again. She'll already know where I stand on it. She did leave the church for about twenty minutes and returned with the skirt only a few inches above the knee. It was a great improvement, and I managed to say "Thank you" to her after church as she seemed in a hurry to get away. Should I have said anything? Certainly, I'm a sinner too...does that mean I should never rebuke anyone for anything? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#124699
04/13/10 04:57 PM
04/13/10 04:57 PM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Florida, USA
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So my brother, when you see a member say that they are going to get a abortion or help someone get a abortion, how do you handle it. Do you confront, stay quiet, or go get 2 other members..... Personally? I see abortion as anything but a cut-and-dried issue, and I would leave such up to individual conscience. The real sin, in most cases, was what led to the pregnancy. In any case, I have never ever heard anyone tell me that they planned to get an abortion, and I do not honestly know what I would do in that case. I think it might depend on how well I knew the person. If you do not know someone, it is hard to confront them without totally alienating them. I did have an interesting case a few weeks ago... I had been very discouraged. During the week the pastor, who never attends the adult Sabbath School class because he is leading the youth, had informed me that my comments in Sabbath school were out of line. I honestly have no idea what he referred to, as most of my comments are scripture-based. I do, now and then, disagree with the lesson quarterly and/or its authors. But I really do not know where the pastor had heard about my comments. Anyhow, I was really down. That Sabbath I was on duty, and went early to the church to open things up and make preparations. One of the teachers came in wearing the shortest mini-skirt I had ever seen her wear, and she stood up on the platform to practice for leading the singing. We don't meet in a church, it's an auditorium much more like a theater, with sloping floor and folding bucket seats down to the front where the stage stands about four feet above the floor. So, anyone sitting in the front seats especially is looking up at an angle from below those on the platform. If she had been a student, it might be one thing, but as a teacher, her influence is magnified. I do not ordinarily speak to people about how they dress, but in this case I made an exception. I told her about this Bible verse: Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon. (Exodus 20:28) That is important enough that God gave those instructions just after the Ten Commandments. I realize our church _does_ have steps up to the platform. We cannot change the building. But we certainly do not need to risk having our nakedness "discovered thereon" by wearing a miniskirt at such an altitude! After telling her about the verse, I explained the fact that people would be sitting down there below her, and that it would not be a pretty sight. I fear I laid it out rather plainly, but as a church leader who was that Sabbath on duty, I felt I had to say something. When I told my mother about it later, she said I should have said nothing, because Mrs. White tells us not to speak to the "sisters" about dress. She said the outward appearance might change, but not the heart. Something like that--I have yet to see the EGW statement in this regard. Anyhow, I felt bad for having said anything. However, having spoken to the lady once, I have no intention of ever addressing the issue with her again. She'll already know where I stand on it. She did leave the church for about twenty minutes and returned with the skirt only a few inches above the knee. It was a great improvement, and I managed to say "Thank you" to her after church as she seemed in a hurry to get away. Should I have said anything? Certainly, I'm a sinner too...does that mean I should never rebuke anyone for anything? Blessings, Green Cochoa. Wow, you did the right thing my brother. If you are the one openning up or the head elder or head deacon, and you see a problem before the service, you need to speak up. Many dont and the church is harmed with all the members affected. Its difficult thing to handle but done quietly and discreetly can help the person or persons involved, and sets a standard which others can follow. We had a teacher that wore earrings to the childrens class, and members gently communicated their concerns and one Sabbath she got up in front of the whole church and told them she was done with her earrings and would put them away and thanked everyone for understanding, and the whole church was blessed from her testimony. Its tough, but if its not communicated and the sin continues, others begin to pick it up and not only do it but flaunt it, and its all downhill from there. But it has to be done with a lot of love, and sometimes I know I am not the one to talk to the person and so I pass on it. But its something that needs to be discussed amoung the faithful members, even ahead of time so they are prepared, and the best possible way found to handle it. Abortion is a hard one to tackle, but I have had experience with it so if any young person needs advice, I am happy to give it. I also can talk to those who think its none of anyones business or/and are 'pro-choice', lifes hard knocks prepares you and God gives you the words to help a brother or sister..
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Re: Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
[Re: Rick H]
#124732
04/14/10 06:06 PM
04/14/10 06:06 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Stoning the sinner, the thread is called. But reading the comments, I wonder, what is a sin? Abortions, dress lenght and earrings are mentioned. Abortion might and might not cut the definition, but as Greenie pointed out, its not a simple question to deal with and many times the punishment for a real sin. Dress lenght as in the example above, clearly a case of improper and it was well of this woman to take Greenies advice to heart as it could have lead church members to sin. But then again, Pauls advice to act in the best interest of others comes in the context of "all is allowed but not all is beneficial". So to call it a sin? And earrings? Maybe it falls as a case of "whatever you believe is sin, dont do it"? Then comparable with a KJV only believer reading the NIV or a vegan believer eating a piece of cheese.
However, was stoning ever punishment for such circumstancial "sins"? Wasnt stoning rather meted out for sins related to the ten commandments or sins of blatant disregard for God? So I wonder, will more related examples be forthcomming in this thread?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Stoning the sinner, who should cast the first stone?
[Re: vastergotland]
#124994
04/25/10 08:41 PM
04/25/10 08:41 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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When a church member is involved in open sin he or she should be dealt with openly and tenderly. The purpose of church discipline is restore offenders to Jesus and to maintain the integrity of the Gospel.
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