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Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125377
05/14/10 08:26 PM
05/14/10 08:26 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
"Easy" can mean two things:
1) It is easier to fall off a bike than to ride it because it takes less effort.
2) It is easier to ride a bike than to fall off it because it is less painful.

R is talking about #1. Tom is talking about #2. That being the case, I agree with both.

However, God recognizes our free moral agency, but the wind does not.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125382
05/15/10 03:13 AM
05/15/10 03:13 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
"Easy" can mean two things:
1) It is easier to fall off a bike than to ride it because it takes less effort.
2) It is easier to ride a bike than to fall off it because it is less painful.

Let's pull this back to the original question: Why do we sin?

We know that sin brings a lot of pain. And we also know that most people continue in sin; few can truly be called holy saints.

So why do we continue to sin? Not because we want pain, but because we don't want to put forth the effort.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125388
05/16/10 02:18 AM
05/16/10 02:18 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
However, God recognizes our free moral agency, but the wind does not.

Precisely. Tom said God is an opponent. But God is an opponent who plays fair, while Satan is an opponent who plays dirty. God is a gentleman, but Satan is not.

Quote:
So why do we continue to sin? Not because we want pain, but because we don't want to put forth the effort.

Yes. Human beings practice the law of less effort also in the spiritual realm.


Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Rosangela] #125391
05/16/10 03:35 AM
05/16/10 03:35 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: arnold
"Easy" can mean two things:
1) It is easier to fall off a bike than to ride it because it takes less effort.
2) It is easier to ride a bike than to fall off it because it is less painful.

R is talking about #1. Tom is talking about #2. That being the case, I agree with both.

However, God recognizes our free moral agency, but the wind does not.


I mean easy both ways. It takes more effort to fight against God, and it's more painful.

I'll go back to the question I asked previously. Is it easier to serve God, or to fight against Him? Christ said that His yoke is easy and his burden is light. The SOP tells us that Christ's yoke is obedience to the law of God. So that means that obedience to the law is easy. This is the Good News, although almost no one believes it. This is because of the enemy who doesn't play fair. He lies. But inspiration is clear on the matter.

There's also the other quote from the SOP which tells us not to conclude that the wide path is the easy one and the straight one the difficult one.

We were created to obey God. When we behave as we were designed to, we see the difference that Christ was talking about, that His yoke is easy and His burden light.

Any one who is a Christ knows this by personal experience. All you have to do is look at your own experience, and ask yourself the question: Considering the times when I was following Christ closely, and when I wasn't, which was easier?

This is a really easy question to answer.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125392
05/16/10 06:38 PM
05/16/10 06:38 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
I mean easy both ways. It takes more effort to fight against God, and it's more painful.

Then why are so many people lost? That more people are lost than saved is a fact.
In my opinion, as I said, it's easier to be lost because people are not willing to put forth the effort necessary to cling to God.
You say that they are not lost owing to the law of less effort, since it takes more effort to fight against God than to serve Him. Then why are so many lost? What is the reason?
If you say that it's because people are deceived, the fact remains that it is easier to be lost than saved because people are so easily deceived by the devil.

Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Rosangela] #125394
05/17/10 02:01 AM
05/17/10 02:01 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Then why are so many people lost? That more people are lost than saved is a fact.


We don't really know what the proportion is, but assuming what you say is true, the reason is that people choose to do the difficult thing, of course.

Quote:
In my opinion, as I said, it's easier to be lost because people are not willing to put forth the effort necessary to cling to God.


What's easier, to serve God, or to fight against Him? You appear to believe serving God is difficult, whereas fighting against Him is less so. I don't think this is right. Again, Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Assuming Jesus is correct here, wouldn't that mean this is an easier thing to do than the reverse? The yoke of Satan is hard, and his burden heavy. Isn't this correct?

Quote:
You say that they are not lost owing to the law of less effort, since it takes more effort to fight against God than to serve Him. Then why are so many lost?


Because they believe the lies of the enemy, lies which lead to living a hard life. The way of sinners is hard. The yoke of Christ is easy. This is what Scripture teaches.

Quote:
What is the reason?
If you say that it's because people are deceived, the fact remains that it is easier to be lost than saved because people are so easily deceived by the devil.


Please consider the following questions.

1.Is it easier to serve God, or fight against Him? Please take your own experience into consideration. Which path did you personally find more difficult?

2.Is is true that Christ's yoke is easy? Is it true that Satan's yoke is heavy? Similarly, is it true that Christ's burden is light? And Satan's heavy? Is it true that the way of sinners is hard?

3.Also, there's the statement from the SOP that we shouldn't conclude that the wide path is the easy one and the straight one the hard one. It seems to me this is just what's being done.

Another point is that God loves people too much to allow them to easily be lost.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Rosangela] #125396
05/17/10 07:07 AM
05/17/10 07:07 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
I mean easy both ways. It takes more effort to fight against God, and it's more painful.

Then why are so many people lost? That more people are lost than saved is a fact.
How do you presume to know that?
Quote:

In my opinion, as I said, it's easier to be lost because people are not willing to put forth the effort necessary to cling to God.
You say that they are not lost owing to the law of less effort, since it takes more effort to fight against God than to serve Him. Then why are so many lost? What is the reason?
If you say that it's because people are deceived, the fact remains that it is easier to be lost than saved because people are so easily deceived by the devil.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: vastergotland] #125398
05/17/10 04:03 PM
05/17/10 04:03 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
I mean easy both ways. It takes more effort to fight against God, and it's more painful.

Then why are so many people lost? That more people are lost than saved is a fact.
How do you presume to know that?

R is certainly able to speak for herself, but since I agree with her on this point, I'll answer from my own perspective.

Quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 (New King James Version)

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

According to Jesus, many go down the road that leads to destruction, but few find the road that leads to life.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125399
05/17/10 04:30 PM
05/17/10 04:30 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: arnold
"Easy" can mean two things:
1) It is easier to fall off a bike than to ride it because it takes less effort.
2) It is easier to ride a bike than to fall off it because it is less painful.

R is talking about #1. Tom is talking about #2. That being the case, I agree with both.

However, God recognizes our free moral agency, but the wind does not.


I mean easy both ways. It takes more effort to fight against God, and it's more painful.

In the rest of your post, I didn't see one that clearly shows that following God is less difficult. However, Jesus said that the road to life is difficult.

Quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 (New King James Version)

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Furthermore, we are told to strive to enter the narrow gate, but I know of no verse that says we need to strive to be lost.

Quote:
Luke 13:24 (New King James Version)

“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The SOP also teaches that the Christian life is not one of ease.

Quote:
The desire for an easy religion that requires no striving, no self-denial, no divorce from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of faith, and faith only, a popular doctrine; but what saith the word of God? {GC 472.1}

To corrupt our ways before God requires no effort; but to engraft habits of righteousness and truth upon the character takes time and patient endeavor. {CTBH 32.1}

Many desired life, but made no effort to obtain it. They did not choose life, and now there was no atoning blood to cleanse the guilty, no compassionate Saviour to plead for them... {EW 281.1}

To form a character which God will approve, requires persevering effort. {HP 47.3}

Soul culture, which gives purity and elevation to the thoughts and fragrance to word and act, requires more painstaking effort. {CT 108.3}

It requires a constant, earnest, and vigilant effort to watch and control self, to keep Jesus prominent and self out of sight. {LHU 213.3}

Note {CTBH 32.1}: it requires no effort to be corrupt. Surely, striving to be holy cannot require less effort than that. In fact, {EW 281.1} tells us that those who want life but make no effort to obtain it will be lost. In short, life requires effort, but death requires none.

I'll end with this well-known quote:
Quote:
Wrongs cannot be righted, nor can reformations in conduct be made by a few feeble, intermittent efforts. Character building is the work, not of a day, nor of a year, but of a lifetime. The struggle for conquest over self, for holiness and heaven, is a lifelong struggle. Without continual effort and constant activity, there can be no advancement in the divine life, no attainment of the victor's crown. {MH 452.1}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125401
05/17/10 04:49 PM
05/17/10 04:49 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Well said, Arnold, and thank you.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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