It is no easy matter to gain the priceless treasure of eternal life. {Mar 47.3}

The gaining of eternal life is no easy thing. {TMK 21.5}

It is difficult to depart from old customs and established ideas. {CT 392.1}

It is easier to learn evil than to eradicate it after it is learned. {CG 457.4}

It is easier to invite the enemy into your hearts than to dismiss him after he has the ground. {3T 325.3}

It is difficult to hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end; and the difficulty increases when there are hidden influences constantly at work to bring in another spirit, a counterworking element, on Satan's side of the question. {Mar 28.2}

In this time of special danger for the young, temptations surround them on every hand; and while it is easy to drift, the strongest effort is required in order to press against the current. {Ed 293.2}

It is difficult to arouse them to a sense of the shame and grievous nature of sin. {ML 146.3}

It is difficult to hold fast Christian integrity. {TMK 352.2}

Let self break in pieces before God. It is hard to do this; but we are warned to fall upon the Rock and be broken, else it will fall upon us, and grind us to powder. {HP 30.2}

Into the experience of all there come times of keen disappointment and utter discouragement--days when sorrow is the portion, and it is hard to believe that God is still the kind benefactor of His earth-born children; days when troubles harass the soul, till death seems preferable to life. It is then that many lose their hold on God and are brought into the slavery of doubt, the bondage of unbelief. {ML 328.2}

In many cases the moral powers seem deadened, and it is difficult to arouse them to a sense of the shame and grievous nature of sin; they slip easily into habits of prevarication, deceit, and often open lying. {CG 388.1}

We have trained ourselves to engage with earnestness and power in worldly business, until it is easy for the mind to take that turn. This is why Christians find a religious life so hard and a worldly life so easy. {2T 263.4}

To resist Satan's desires is no easy task. It demands a firm hold of the divine nature from beginning to end, or it cannot be done. {1SM 342.3}

It is easy for you to drop Christ out of your experience. {5T 586.3}

It is easy to rebel, easy to give battle before considering matters rationally, calmly, and settling whether there is anything to war against. {1T 527.1}

It is easy for the enemy to work through those who, themselves needing counsel at every step, undertake the guardianship of souls in their own strength, without having learned the lowliness of Christ. {AA 279.1}

Temptations surround them on every hand; and while it is easy work to float with the current, the strongest effort is required to press against the tide of evil. {4T 421.3}

The strongest evidence of man's fall from a higher state is the fact that it costs so much to return. The way of return can be gained only by hard fighting, inch by inch, hour by hour. In one moment, by a hasty, unguarded act, we may place ourselves in the power of evil; but it requires more than a moment to break the fetters and attain to a holier life. The purpose may be formed, the work begun; but its accomplishment will require toil, time, perseverance, patience, and sacrifice. {MH 452.2}

GC, I loved your river vs. trail analogy. Did you write it? Reminds me of Ellen's narrow way vision.

Yes, I wrote it. Sometimes allegories can better convey the sense of meaning, and in this case I felt this depiction would better portray the concepts I wished to express than my prior attempt at logic. I did think of Ellen White's vision, but it is only focused on the righteous, and makes little mention of the lost. The lost, however, would naturally be going in an opposing direction to that of the righteous, so if the righteous are climbing upward on an ever-narrowing path bordered by precipitous drops (precipices), then it must be assumed that the wicked are travelling downward, more in the valley (where waters flow).

Both journeys involve pain and hardship. Where the trip to Heaven is especially hard, as opposed to the easy life on the trip to Hell, is where we speak of "willpower." It takes no will to be lost. But to be saved, one must strive unto blood. The reward of the saved makes the trip worth it all, and Heaven "cheap enough."

To think that one need not exert himself/herself in any wise to obtain the victor's crown is what I would call a "cheap grace" religion. This is the error that Mrs. White vigorously combats in the quotes you have brought here, Mike.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It doesn't appear to me that you're reading what I'm saying. Please quote something from this thread where I've said something along the lines of what you're saying. I don't think I have.



Ok, if you choose to believe this, that's your prerogative. I'll choose to believe that we shouldn't conclude that the downward path is the easy way, that the yoke of Jesus is easy that His burden is light, that the love of God has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves, and that the way of the transgressor is hard.

I think this is wrong.



The point that I keep bringing up which is either being missed or disagreed with, I'm not sure which, is that God isn't being idle. He doesn't sit by with His arms crossed twiddling His thumbs (to mix metaphors) while the lost slide their way to hell. "God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves."

The light shining from the cross draws each lost one to Christ, and unless he resists, he will be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins.



It takes willpower to refuse to come to Christ.



Not the reward of the saved, but the reward of Christ. That is, His reward, His honor, His glory, makes following Him cheap enough.

Tom, why would anyone conclude it is easy to be saved and hard to be lost based on what Ellen White wrote above (see passages quoted in my last post)?

Why do you think she clearly says "it is easy to rebel . . . to float with the current . . . to resist Satan's desires is no easy task . . . the gaining of eternal life is no easy thing . . . it is difficult to hold fast Christian integrity . . . it is difficult to hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end."

"The strongest evidence of man's fall from a higher state is the fact that it costs so much to return. The way of return can be gained only by hard fighting, inch by inch, hour by hour. In one moment, by a hasty, unguarded act, we may place ourselves in the power of evil; but it requires more than a moment to break the fetters and attain to a holier life. The purpose may be formed, the work begun; but its accomplishment will require toil, time, perseverance, patience, and sacrifice. {MH 452.2}

Do you have an inspired quote to back up your thoughts which proves this is wrong? (And it would need to place in proper perspective those quotes which Mike has presented as well, else it seems the evidence is contrary to your thinking.)

So, do you believe God's love is fickle? That He loves some into salvation, and hates others (like Esau) out of it? If God were truly busy, and not "twiddling His thumbs," don't you think everyone should be saved? especially considering it is supposedly easier to be saved?


How much willpower? Find even one statement of Mrs. White or the Bible to back this up.

Resistance does not always require willpower. In fact, to the contrary resistance is often human nature. For example, Corrie Ten Boom naturally resisted forgiving the Nazi guard from the concentration camp. It took real willpower to overcome said resistance. Resistance is often natural, and requires no will.

I'm not sure I understand your meaning here. The reward coming from Christ or to Him? To me, this is just picking at straws. Ellen White is the one who tells us the redeemed will say Heaven is cheap enough, and that their former trials seem like nothing in comparison with it. Do you agree with her?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Because they didn't read the other passages, or consider the words of Jesus Christ.



Because she had a context in mind.

"Yet do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way" is too clear to be misunderstood, and is explicitly dealing with the subject being discussed.

Yes, the ones I've quoted.



I think the quotes I provided are dealing explicitly with the subject at hand. I don't think MM's are (as EGW wouldn't contradict herself).

And Jesus Christ Himself said, "My yoke is easy, my burden is light." What more do we need that this?



You're concluding that because I make the point that God doesn't sit idly by to allow one to be lost, that God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves (which is actually a quote), that I believe God's love is fickle? Please explain your reasoning here.



What are you trying to say here? God does nothing to try to save the lost? I'm not understanding your point here.

To answer your questions, I believe God is truly busy (I guess you don't?) and the reason not everyone is saved is because not everyone chooses to respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit.



Isn't this clear that God is truly busy, and that it does not follow that because God is busy that all will be saved, as well as explaining why not?



I just quoted them.



Why do you think anyone is saved? Because they have willpower? Where did the get it from? What about the lost? Why didn't they have the willpower that the saved had?



His reward: what He deserves, the reward He will receive.



It's crucial that we understand the difference between egocentricism and agape.



The redeemed are following Christ for egocentric reasons. Ellen White was clear about this. My comment was directed to what you said, not what she said.

Here's an example from her words regarding the point I was making:

The ones you quoted did not mention the will.


I am glad you see that the quotes are in tension with each other. I disagree with you that they are unrelated to this subject.

Tom, it's simple. You believe it is easier to be saved than to be lost. You have supported this belief with a corollary belief which says the first one is true because of God's love which is not "idle." Here's the problem: Vast numbers of people will be lost, while only a small remnant are saved. If I held your beliefs, I would be forced to conclude that God's love is fickle or ineffective.

Fortunately, I do not believe that God's love alone is what saves us.

Of course I believe that God is busy. All of Heaven is busy. But God's "busyness" is not sufficient to keep all sinners on the straight and narrow, would you agree? Have you ever prayed that God would help you stop sinning while you were sinning? Was that prayer answered? God may present the right way to your moral senses, but it is fully up to the decision of your own will whether or not you will follow it. God's love is not powerful enough to prevent you from choosing sin if you wish to choose it. In fact, the temptation can be rather strong. No need to speak of addictions here, but God's love, while it may encourage ever so much, can never force us to do right, nor does it promise to make the right easy.
That's not speaking of God forcing the will, is it? Which way does the sinner's will incline: toward good or toward evil? "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Does God's love change this? If so, how come it does not treat all men equally, and save all?

Not yet, you haven't. Where do your quotes speak of willpower?

I'll answer this from Mrs. White:


And here's an interesting one...it appears that God allows those who do not place themselves on His side to be forced to do wrong: "Everyone may place his will on the side of the will of God, may choose to obey Him, and by thus linking himself with divine agencies, he may stand where nothing can force him to do evil."

In other words, if you do not place yourself on God's side, you will be forced to do evil. God may not force, but Satan does force. That is the core of the issue here, and the reason it is less than easy to be saved.

You're not making sense here. Why are the redeemed following Christ egocentrically?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.