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Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: Elle] #135943
09/06/11 03:33 AM
09/06/11 03:33 AM
dedication  Online Content
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There were just two festivals that landed on Sunday.
The waving of the First Sheaf and the day of Penticost.

That means TWICE A YEAR, a special event took place on a Sunday.

The Feast of Tabernacles was not governed by the weekly cycle. It began on the fifteenth day of the seventh month and just like in our calendar the fifteenth day of a month can land on any day of the week, so the two "sabbaths" of the Feast of Tabernacles could have both been on Mondays one year, Tuesdays the next, etc.

So that really was NOT at all connected with Sunday being anything special.

Our own campmeetings are eight day events, I don't think anyone thinks of the second Sabbath as being any special "eighth" day worship day.

Personally I think the "eighth day" concept as referring to sunday was not at all part of the Jewish thinking.

It was something that those who wanted to disassociate themselves from the Jews developed. They added spiritualized dimensions to the number "eight", applied it to Sunday in an effort to make the Sabbath to Sunday switch.

Nor do I believe the early Christians were meeting on Sunday on any regular basis. They were keeping the 7th day Sabbath.

Even in the 5th Century Socrates wrote:

"Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebaïs, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath...



The assumption that Christians were keeping Sunday early on is what the Catholic church would like us to believe.

Before taking the ancient "writings" of "church fathers" as the final word, we need to make sure they ACTUALLY wrote what is attributed to them. And then there's also the fact that Rome diligently destroyed all writings considered "heretical", thus we do not have the writings from the "church in the wilderness", and there is evidence that there WERE such writings, but all we have is what their enemies wrote ABOUT them.

Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: dedication] #135949
09/06/11 12:41 PM
09/06/11 12:41 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
Can anyone answer the last objection in my first post. I'd be grateful for any historical back up.

The objection that the pagans (Romans) didn't even have a seven day week so how could Christians have adopted a pagan sunday.

The seven-day week was adopted by the Romans around the beginning of the first century AD, that is, at the beginning of the Christian era.

Quote:
The first public evidence of the seven-day week in Rome occurred in a Sabine calendar of between 19 BC and 14 AD. By 79 AD, there was widespread familiarity with the seven-day week and the corresponding names of the days
http://www.therthdimension.org/AncientRome/Calendar/calendar.html


Quote:
The ancient Etruscans developed an eight-day market week known as the nundinal cycle around the 8th or 7th century BC. This was passed on to the Romans no later than the 6th century BC. As Rome expanded, it encountered the seven-day week and for a time attempted to include both. The popularity of the seven-day rhythm won and the eight-day week disappeared forever.

The cycle of seven days, named after the sun, the moon, and the five planets visible to the naked eye, was already customary in the time of Justin Martyr, who wrote of the Christians meeting on the Day of the Sun (Sunday).[10]

Emperor Constantine eventually established the seven-day week in the Roman calendar in AD 321.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week#Christian_.22eighth_day.22

Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: Rosangela] #135955
09/06/11 06:00 PM
09/06/11 06:00 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Thanks Rosangela
I think with a little research the seven day week can be traced right back to creation.

Actually Justin's letter is a powerful answer to those who say Rome knew nothing about a day in honor to the sun known as Sunday or the seven day week.
Either Justin's letter was interloped (added to) to prove early Sunday worship, or the Romans already were honouring Sunday (in a seven week cycle) as a special day dedicated to the sun.
The Sunday promoters can't have it both ways.

I believe it is the latter. Justinian shows the biggest reason why SOME early Christians were moving to Sunday. They wanted to be disassociated from the Jews.

The Jews were in constant trouble with Rome. Rome had destroyed their city and temple in 70 AD. The Romans, under Hadrian, crushed a second Jewish rebellion for independence in a three-year war ending in 135 AD. The rebellion was led by Simon bar Kochba, who was declared to be the messiah. This time the Romans completely destroyed Jerusalem even plowing it up and banning all Jews from the area. Emperor Hadrian prohibited Sabbath worship throughout the Roman Empire as well as circumcision. So it was a Tough time!

Justin the Martyr wrote to the Roman Emperor Antoninus, who ruled from 138-161. So we see this was written soon after all the major Jewish catastrophies. He is trying to gain favor for Christians from the new Roman Emperor.

Justin writes:
Quote:
on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. ...Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (1st Apology chp. LXVIII)


So what do we have here --
1. A life and death struggle in which some of the Christians feel it imperative to be disassociated with the Jews.

2. A decree forbidding worship on Saturday and other Jewish identifying practices.

3. A man trying to win the favor of new Roman emperor.

4. A clear indication that this Roman emperor was well acquainted with calling the days of the week by the pagan names "sunday" "Saturnday"

These pagan names were NOT the names the Jewish used for their weekdays. They were clearly pagan. And obviously in use when the shift to sunday was being pushed.

5. Now we can consider this -- German Adventists have been severely critisized for their support of Hitler in his early years, and for compromising on the Sabbath due to political and often life and death demands to participate in the war.
Does this mean that the compromise is the RIGHT action and should now be regarded as the NORM for Adventist believers?

I think we would answer that with a resounding "NO".
Yet, the Christian world looks at a similar compromise as written by Justin, and say "YES" the compromise should be regarded as the norm.

Yet, if it really was the norm then why would the Catholic church for centuries after this be issuing decrees and working in many ways and many places to gradually stamp out, and outlaw worship on the true Sabbath?

We need to keep in focus the centuries long battle the Catholic church waged against the Sabbath? Then the true picture as outlined in Spirit of Prophecy comes back into focus.

Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: dedication] #135960
09/06/11 06:33 PM
09/06/11 06:33 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
They will then quote the VERY FEW remaining documents that have been known to be "doctored" over the ages, written by "the fathers" to prove that Christians from the earliest years were already meeting on Sunday not Saturday.
However, it has been proven over and over that everything from wrong dates ascribed to those documents, misquoting, and additions were needed to make those documents say what is now the accepted understanding of what they say. It is also ignoring the fact that the Catholic Church was very industrious in obliterating writings that didn't agree with her version of things.


I presume you are refering to this quote:

Originally Posted By: Justin Martyr

Justin writes in his First Apology 67:

On the day called Sunday all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen .... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior in the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for you consideration.



Please post documentation supporting the accusation that the early documents have been "doctored". Also, please post the original documents, (or links to them) so we can compare them. Since it has been "proved over and over", that should not be hard.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: dedication] #135961
09/06/11 06:41 PM
09/06/11 06:41 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Point number two. Having just maligned the quote from Justin Martyr as being "doctored" with additions, spurious dates, etc., you now use it to support an allegation of your own. Can you please explain. Are the early manuscripts reliable or not? dunno


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: Rosangela] #135962
09/06/11 06:49 PM
09/06/11 06:49 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Sunday observance began virtually simultainiously with the start of the Christian church.

No, it began after the death of the apostles, otherwise they would have written about it.


Maybe. (Early manuscripts do not support that view.) Or maybe they didn't write about it because they recognized that it wasn't a critical issue.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
In the NT there is almost no discussion of the Sabbath/Sunday "issue"
But there should be in case Sunday was already observed at that time, since this would have been a reason for controversy, like circumcision.


I have no idea what you are saying here.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: Rosangela] #135963
09/06/11 06:58 PM
09/06/11 06:58 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Posts: 663
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Justin was one of the main apologists of the first century

Second century.


Perhaps you would like to email the author, Thomas D. Hanson, Sr. http://www.gci.org/aboutus/contact


(A very interesting read, by the way. The author quotes many SDA sources, if you check the end notes link. http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/hansonnotes)


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: JAK] #135965
09/06/11 07:38 PM
09/06/11 07:38 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
In the NT there is almost no discussion of the Sabbath/Sunday "issue"[quote]
But there should be in case Sunday was already observed at that time, since this would have been a reason for controversy, like circumcision.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

Judaizers adhered to the need to observe the Mosaic laws. Do you think they would urge the new Christians to observe circumcision (a frequent theme in Paul's letters) but wouldn't urge them to observe the Sabbath (since the latter were supposedly observing Sunday)?

Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: JAK] #135966
09/06/11 07:43 PM
09/06/11 07:43 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Perhaps you would like to email the author, Thomas D. Hanson, Sr.

Any internet source will give the birth and death dates for Justin Martyr as c. 100 and c. 165, respectively. This is obviously second century and what he wrote was obviously a mistake.

Re: The Origin of Sunday Observance? [Re: Rosangela] #135967
09/06/11 08:15 PM
09/06/11 08:15 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I've taken a quick look at the article.

Quote:
From Justin's time, most Christians gathered on Sunday morning (though various sabbatarian groups met on Saturday), and from then until now is an unbroken historical sequence in the custom of Sunday observance.61

This is pathetic. Not having one single Bible passage to quote which commands Sunday to be observed, the author, obviously, has to rely on tradition.

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