Agreed! Given this is the case, Christ having sinful flesh wouldn't be a (moral) problem, right?

Right. But that's assuming we're limiting it to actual flesh, and not expanding it to corrupt thoughts and feelings.

But there are contexts in which "flesh" includes moral qualities, such as "walk in the Spirit and you won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh" and "the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh." I'm not talking about that.

When one is made a new creature, in the image of Jesus, does that person have an evil heart?

No, right?

I'm not sure about that. In the Christian, the flesh and Spirit lust against each other. This is an instance where I believe the "flesh" includes moral qualities. In this context, the evil heart must be suppressed.

Right. I didn't intend to mix the two. What I was trying to get across is that Rom 14:23 fits better with the paradigm of sin = lawlessness, rather than sin = willful disobedience. It includes the idea of passive sin.

The "transgression" in 1Jn 3:4 is actually lawlessness - lack of law. And since the law is simply the transcript of God's character, it should be obvious why lacking it is a very bad thing. I've never expressed it this way, but it seems to be a reasonable way to reword the verse - sin is the lack of God's character.

WDYT?

I think the flesh is still amoral here. EGW wrote that the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. That's where the morality comes in. The flesh stirs up desires, and the Spirit makes appeals, and we choose who, or what, we will follow.

I think you mean by your expression a "lack of agreement with God's character." Given I'm correct about what you meant, I agree, in regards to unknown sin.

I'm qualifying my answer because there's sin and unknown sin. In terms of unknown sin, I think this would be a fine way of putting it.

M: Tom, do you think the woman was possessed by seven different demons simultaneously and that Jesus cast them out one at a time over a period of time?

T: Yes.

M: If so, are you suggesting Jesus told her each time to go and live without committing the sins associated with the demons that were cast out? If so, are you suggesting a demon possessed person can cooperate with the Holy Spirit and resist sinning in specific areas but not in other ways due to demon possession?

T: I don't follow you. She was caught in the act of adultery, which was the result of her working as a prostitute. Her uncle seduced her, which led to her self-destruction. The first step back was this first encounter she had with Jesus Christ. Seven times Jesus cast demons out of her, until she was finally clean.

T: To be clear, I'm not saying that there's an excuse for sin, or that it's OK if one sins, or anything like that. I know you know that I believe in perfection of character, but I'll reassert this belief for others who may not. I was pointing out that in the context of what was happening, Jesus Christ was not saying to her, "Now don't ever commit another sin again as long as you live," but "Go and sin (this sin) no more." This isn't giving her permission to do other sins, but is concentrating on the specific sin which was the issue at the time, which is how God works with each of us. He takes us where we are when we come to Him, and heals us, as we are willing and able to be healed.

M: What is the difference between sinful flesh and evil heart? Is one inherited and the other cultivated? What happens to them when, in Christ, we cease sinning?

A: They can both be inherited and cultivated. The difference is that the evil heart is a moral issue, while the sinful flesh is amoral.

A: Did Jesus have both of them [sinful flesh and evil heart]?

A: When one is made a new creature, in the image of Jesus, does that person have an evil heart?

To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, heart, and soul. The apostle says, "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16). Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. But men can never enter heaven with their old tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories. Heaven would be no place of joy to them; for everything would be in collision with their tastes, appetites, and inclinations, and painfully opposed to their natural and cultivated traits of character. {3SM 190.2}

The words, "A new heart also will I give you" (Ezekiel 36:26), mean, A new mind will I give you. This change of heart is always attended by a clear conception of Christian duty, an understanding of truth. The clearness of our view of truth will be proportionate to our understanding of the word of God. He who gives the Scriptures close, prayerful attention will gain clear comprehension and sound judgment, as if in turning to God he had reached a higher plane of intelligence. {CT 452.3}

The youth especially stumble over this phrase, "A new heart." They do not know what it means. They look for a special change to take place in their feelings. This they term conversion. Over this error thousands have stumbled to ruin, not understanding the expression, "Ye must be born again." . . . When Jesus speaks of the new heart, He means the mind, the life, the whole being. To have a change of heart is to withdraw the affections from the world, and fasten them upon Christ. To have a new heart is to have a new mind, new purposes, new motives. What is the sign of a new heart?--a changed life. There is a daily, hourly dying to selfishness and pride. {SD 100.2}

T:I think the flesh is still amoral here. EGW wrote that the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. That's where the morality comes in. The flesh stirs up desires, and the Spirit makes appeals, and we choose who, or what, we will follow.

a:If the flesh is stirring up desires that go against the desires of the Spirit, I don't see how that could be amoral.

I don't know how much immoral you could get than going against the desires of the Spirit, and thereby warring against the soul.

When something desires that which is anti-Christ, that something is not amoral.

It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)

T:I think you mean by your expression a "lack of agreement with God's character." Given I'm correct about what you meant, I agree, in regards to unknown sin.

I'm qualifying my answer because there's sin and unknown sin. In terms of unknown sin, I think this would be a fine way of putting it.

A:Actually, I mean "not having God's character" is a very bad thing. I'm not sure if that matches your idea.

I'm also not sure why you need to qualify it to unknown sin. I think it works for all sin - known sin, unknown sin, willful sin, accidental sin, whatever sin. Sin is the lack of God's law of love.

(Side note: 1Jn 3:4 says, "Hamartia is anomia." The "anomia" part removes ignorance of the law as an excuse.

The "hamartia" part removes inability to keep the law as an excuse. John had such a tremendous bias against sin.)

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3)

You seem to be saying condemnation is inherited. That is, if we inherit an evil heart, and having an evil heart is a moral issue, doesn't it stand to reason we are condemned before we choose to sin?

Jesus inherited sinful flesh nature the same as us. Which, as you say, having a sinful flesh nature is amoral. Condemnation or salvation is based on character and not on what we inherit at birth. Regarding an evil heart, God said, "the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth." (Gen 8:21) It does not say we inherit an evil heart at conception. Instead, I think it's right to say we inherit a fallen flesh nature, which, until we experience rebirth, results in us naturally cultivating sinful traits of character, an "evil heart of unbelief".

Condemnation or salvation is based on character and not on what we inherit at birth.