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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Daryl]
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07/17/10 12:40 AM
07/17/10 12:40 AM
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"All have sinned" I found this comment by Jonathan Gallangher interesting: What is sin? We speak so often about this subject, but what really do we mean? How do you define sin? Strange, isn’t it? We can know in our minds what we mean, but often it’s so hard to describe and define. Sin is the transgression of the law. That’s the commonest definition. Does that mean that if we are in ignorance of the law then we are not sinning? Clearly not: Paul reminds us that sin remains sin even though we may not be aware of it. So we need to revise our definition a little. Sin is not just a conscious breaking of some specific law. We may well be transgressing (breaking) laws we don’t even know about. Does that make us innocent? Not at all. So then, what if we live exemplary lives, very Pharisaical in our observance of each law in minute detail—does that make us sinless? Again obviously not. What is sin? Another answer is given in the NIV translation of 1 John 3:4: “Sin is lawlessness.” When that word is mentioned, what do you immediately think of? Lawless? Outlaws...lawless frontier towns. Bandits. Westerns. The only ‘law’ the law of the gun, the fastest gun in the West and so on. Why were they lawless? Because they chose to go out and break the law? Or because of their inner attitude? Lawlessness speaks of an inner attitude of mind, a way of thinking and living that is out of harmony with the standard of conduct, behavior and living that the law expresses. ... Sin is an antagonistic attitude, a spirit of rebellion that separates us from God.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rosangela]
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07/17/10 01:19 AM
07/17/10 01:19 AM
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Some illustrations that can be used for this week's lesson: "Don't Put It Off, John!"
Speaking to his physician, John cried in great perplexity, "I might not live a week!" "Of course you may not, John, but very likely you will, and the medicine will be in the house; it will keep; and if you find yourself getting worse, you could take some. I shall not charge anything for it. If you should feel worse tomorrow you might begin even then." "Sir, I may be dead tomorrow!" "When would you propose to begin your medicince then, John?" "Well, sir, I hoped you would tell me to begin today." "Begin today, by all means," consented the doctor, kindly. "I am glad to see you realize how foolish it is to put off taking this medicine." And then the physician, reflecting upon their past conversations about spiritual matters, inquired, "But are you not being just as foolish when you put off taking the medicine which the Great Physician has provided for your sin-sick soul? I plead with you, John; don't put it off!" The Bridge of Repentance and Pardon
Across the River Zambesi, below the Victoria Falls, is a bridge which spans the widest chasm and overlooks the most terrific turmoil of waters to be seen on any river in the world. That bridge was made by building out an arm from either shore and uniting the two outstretched arms in the center above the roaring stream. Neither arm could have reached the opposite bank by itself; the two were needed to meet each other. Such are repentance and pardon which form the bridge across that tumultuous stream and those stupendous falls which separate the soul from God. At first one is inclined to say, "Why cannot the bridge of pardon be thrown over exclusively from God's side?" Perhaps others are tempted to say, "Surely the bridge of repentance will span the chasm and bring the soul to the unregarding God." But no, the truth lies here: pardon without repentance is impossible, and repentance without pardon is useless. When repentance and pardon meet, the soul is joined with God. Put Yourself among Sinners
Dwight L. Moody once said, "The great trouble is that people take everything in general, and do not take it to themselves. Suppose a man should say to me, 'Moody, there was a man in Europe who died last week, and left five million dollars to a certain individual.' 'Well,' I say, 'I don't doubt that; it's rather a common thing to happen,' and I don't think anything more about it. But suppose he says, 'But he left the money to you.' Then I pay attention; I say, 'To me?' 'Yes, he left it to you.' I become suddenly interested. I want to know all about it. So we are apt to think Christ died for sinners; He died for everybody, and for nobody in particular. But when the truth comes to me that eternal life is mine, and all the glories of heaven are mine, I begin to be interested. I say, 'Where is the chapter and verse where it says I can be saved?' If I put myself among sinners, I take the place of the sinner, then that salvation is mine and I am sure of it for time and eternity."
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rosangela]
#126369
07/17/10 05:42 AM
07/17/10 05:42 AM
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It might be a little too deep for most SS classes, but the quarterly did not touch the fact that all have sinned - past tense.
Paul didn't say all will sin, or all will probably sin, or all have the tendency to sin, or any soft words like that. He said all have sinned - a done deal.
However, the "falling short" of God's glory is in the present tense.
But there are those among us who teach that the "sin part" of the verse should be future tense, and the "fall short part" should be past tense. That's not what Paul wrote.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: asygo]
#126373
07/17/10 07:33 AM
07/17/10 07:33 AM
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The quarterly just seemed to skim the surface, but the study help had some good quotes: This matter is so dimly comprehended that thousands upon thousands claiming to be sons of God are children of the wicked one, because they will depend on their own works. God always demanded good works, the law demands it, but because man placed himself in sin where his good works were valueless, Jesus' righteousness alone can avail. Christ is able to save to the uttermost because He ever liveth to make intercession for us. {6BC 1071.5} All that man can possibly do toward his own salvation is to accept the invitation, "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." No sin can be committed by man for which satisfaction has not been met on Calvary. Thus the cross, in earnest appeals, continually proffers to the sinner a thorough expiation (MS 50, 1900). {6BC 1071.6} 24-26 (see EGW on ch. 5:11). The Father Abundantly Satisfied.--The atonement that has been made for us by Christ is wholly and abundantly satisfactory to the Father. God can be just, and yet the justifier of those who believe (MS 28, 1905). {6BC 1071.7} (Ch. 5:1.) Justification Means Complete Pardon.--[Romans 3:24-26 quoted.] Here the truth is laid out in plain lines. This mercy and goodness is wholly undeserved. The grace of Christ is freely to justify the sinner without merit or claim on his part. Justification is a full, complete pardon of sin. The moment a sinner accepts Christ by faith, that moment he is pardoned. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to him, and he is no more to doubt God's forgiving grace. {6BC 1071.8} There is nothing in faith that makes it our saviour. Faith cannot remove our guilt. Christ is the power of God unto salvation to all them that believe. The justification comes through the merits of Jesus Christ. He has paid the price for the sinner's redemption. Yet it is only through faith in His blood that Jesus can justify the believer. {6BC 1071.9} The sinner cannot depend upon his own good works as a means of justification. He must come to the point where he will renounce all his sin, and embrace one degree of light after another as it shines upon his pathway. He simply grasps by faith the free and ample provision made in the blood of Christ. He believes the promises of God, which through Christ are made unto him sanctification and righteousness and redemption. And if he follows Jesus, he will walk humbly in the light, rejoicing in the light and diffusing that light to others. Being justified by faith, he carries cheerfulness with him in his obedience in all his life. Peace with God is the result of what Christ is to him. The souls who are in subordination to God, who honor Him, and are doers of His Word, will receive divine enlightenment. In the precious Word of God there is purity and loftiness as well as beauty that, unless assisted by God, the highest powers of man cannot attain to (ST May 19, 1898). {6BC 1071.10} http://www.ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/10c/helps/lesshp03.html
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rick H]
#126379
07/17/10 06:17 PM
07/17/10 06:17 PM
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God always demanded good works, the law demands it, but because man placed himself in sin where his good works were valueless, Jesus' righteousness alone can avail. {6BC 1071.5} This is a very important point that few grasp. Good works are demanded, but they are valueless. The only thing of value, in terms of salvific acts, is Christ's righteousness, not ours.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: asygo]
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07/18/10 04:51 AM
07/18/10 04:51 AM
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Dwight L. Moody once said, "The great trouble is that people take everything in general, and do not take it to themselves. Suppose a man should say to me, 'Moody, there was a man in Europe who died last week, and left five million dollars to a certain individual.' 'Well,' I say, 'I don't doubt that; it's rather a common thing to happen,' and I don't think anything more about it. But suppose he says, 'But he left the money to you.' Then I pay attention; I say, 'To me?' 'Yes, he left it to you.' I become suddenly interested. I want to know all about it. So we are apt to think Christ died for sinners; He died for everybody, and for nobody in particular. But when the truth comes to me that eternal life is mine, and all the glories of heaven are mine, I begin to be interested. Nice.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Tom]
#126387
07/18/10 04:55 AM
07/18/10 04:55 AM
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This is a very important point that few grasp. Good works are demanded, but they are valueless. The only thing of value, in terms of salvific acts, is Christ's righteousness, not ours. How are we saved? The following is the clearest explanation for me: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.
The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.
Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175) We are saved as we perceive and respond to the love of God revealed at the cross. If we do not resist, God will do all the marvelous things mentioned here for us, bad as we are.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126413
07/19/10 05:35 PM
07/19/10 05:35 PM
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I made this point in SS class and it created quite a stir. Everyone in class was of the opinion the Gospel offers us freedom from sinning but they quickly added we will continue to sin until Jesus returns and changes us. I held my peace thereafter so as not to derail the class. I'm impressed. That must not have been easy.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rosangela]
#126422
07/19/10 08:32 PM
07/19/10 08:32 PM
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Tom, you know me too well. You're right, though, it was hard to let it go. The rest of the class progressed nicely focusing on grace and forgiveness.
Rosangela, I like what Ellen wrote about "continual obedience". Here it is:
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: vastergotland]
#126476
07/20/10 09:29 PM
07/20/10 09:29 PM
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Vaster,
Not of course like Jesus, who was free from sin during His whole life, but for an extended period of time: it seems to me that Enoch may have achieved this for 300 years, Moses may have achieved this for 40 years (before a single sin marred his record), Elijah (also a single sin), Daniel, Joseph, Paul, John...
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: vastergotland]
#126480
07/20/10 11:21 PM
07/20/10 11:21 PM
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Paul wasn't writing of his present experience. E.g. It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. {SC 19.1}
Many are the figures by which the Spirit of God has sought to illustrate this truth, and make it plain to souls that long to be freed from the burden of guilt. Just FYI.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126502
07/21/10 03:22 PM
07/21/10 03:22 PM
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Are born-again believers, who are engaged in Bible study and prayerful contemplation of the closing scenes of Christ's life, simultaneously quilty of committing a sin? If so, which sin or sins are they guilty of committing? This sounds like you're asking if one is guilty of sinning simply by virtue of having a sinful nature. Is this what you mean? Your question, as posed, doesn't have enough information to answer. One could only answer, "maybe." For example, if a person were doing so for selfish motivations, they could be.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Tom]
#126506
07/21/10 03:54 PM
07/21/10 03:54 PM
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I suspect Arnold and Rosangela would say, Yes, we are guilty of sinning because we possess sinful flesh nature. If so, then I disagree.
Let me qualify the above question by clarifying the born-again believer in question is also actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus, actively, aggressively walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, actively, aggressively partaking of the divine nature. So, here's the new and improved question:
Are born-again believers (see clarification above), who are engaged in Bible study and prayerful, selfless, unadulterated contemplation of the closing scenes of Christ's life, simultaneously guilty of committing a sin or sins? If so, what is an example of a sin or sins they could be guilty of committing while engaged in the aforementioned activity?
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
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07/21/10 05:55 PM
07/21/10 05:55 PM
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I suspect Arnold and Rosangela would say, Yes, we are guilty of sinning because we possess sinful flesh nature. If so, then I disagree. I think if this is what you wish to know, that's what you should ask.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126545
07/22/10 05:39 PM
07/22/10 05:39 PM
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Does "all have sinned" mean everyone sins all the time in one way or another? It means our character is imperfect. " Imperfection of character is sin, and sin is the transgression of the law." {TMK 131.2} And, in particular does it include the people and time and circumstances I specified above? [That is] the born-again believer [who] is also actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus, actively, aggressively walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, actively, aggressively partaking of the divine nature "Love rejoices in the truth and institutes no envious comparisons. He who possesses love compares only the loveliness of Christ and his own imperfect character." {COL 402.1} "Christ will be with every minister who, although he may not have attained to perfection of character, is seeking most earnestly to become Christ-like." {SpTA01a 2.2} Ellen White is evidently speaking of born-again believers here. Only a born-again believer "possesses love," and only a born-again believer "is seeking most earnestly to become Christ-like." But she is clear that these born-again believers still possess an imperfect character. That's why "Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf. Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God." {FW 48.3}
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rosangela]
#126559
07/23/10 04:41 PM
07/23/10 04:41 PM
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Does "all have sinned" mean everyone sins all the time in one way or another? It means our character is imperfect. " Imperfection of character is sin, and sin is the transgression of the law." {TMK 131.2} And, in particular does it include the people and time and circumstances I specified above? [That is] the born-again believer [who] is also actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus, actively, aggressively walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, actively, aggressively partaking of the divine nature "Love rejoices in the truth and institutes no envious comparisons. He who possesses love compares only the loveliness of Christ and his own imperfect character." {COL 402.1} "Christ will be with every minister who, although he may not have attained to perfection of character, is seeking most earnestly to become Christ-like." {SpTA01a 2.2} Ellen White is evidently speaking of born-again believers here. Only a born-again believer "possesses love," and only a born-again believer "is seeking most earnestly to become Christ-like." But she is clear that these born-again believers still possess an imperfect character. That's why "Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf. Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God." {FW 48.3} Does "all have sinned" refer to the imperfect traits of character people inherited but never cultivated? Or, does it refer to the ones they themselves have cultivated by sinning repetitiously? Also, is merely having inherited and cultivated sinful traits, defects, weaknesses, imperfections, and tendencies the same thing as indulging them (acting them out in thought, word, or deed)? What if people choose to experience rebirth and choose to abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature and refuse to indulge them - are they guilty of sinning in the sight of God?
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126601
07/26/10 11:12 PM
07/26/10 11:12 PM
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Does "all have sinned" refer to the imperfect traits of character people inherited but never cultivated? Or, does it refer to the ones they themselves have cultivated by sinning repetitiously? A character with imperfect traits (defects) is an imperfect character, whether these traits are cultivated or not. What if people choose to experience rebirth and choose to abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature and refuse to indulge them - are they guilty of sinning in the sight of God? If we are in Christ, we are perfect in Him. But our character is still sinful. "The clearer their views of the greatness, glory, and perfection of Christ, the more vividly will they see their own weakness and imperfection. They will have no disposition to claim a sinless character; that which has appeared right and comely in themselves will, in contrast with Christ's purity and glory, appear only as unworthy and corruptible. It is when men are separated from God, when they have very indistinct views of Christ, that they say, 'I am sinless; I am sanctified.'" {RC 90.2}
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126949
08/26/10 08:15 PM
08/26/10 08:15 PM
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Rosangela, do you believe inheriting traits of character is the same thing as cultivating them? No. Is having them equivalent to developing them? No. What if people refuse to nurture the trait of jealousy in a sinful way - are they guilty of being jealous in an unholy way? We are speaking of jealosy as a sinful tendency/trait, not as a positive quality (like "our God is a jealous God"). If you fight against a tendency, say jealousy, this means that when you have thoughts of jealousy (temptation), you are led to feelings of jealousy, against which you fight. But when you are led to have feelings of jealousy you are already guilty of sin to some extent.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rosangela]
#126954
08/26/10 09:38 PM
08/26/10 09:38 PM
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But when you are led to have feelings of jealousy you are already guilty of sin to some extent. Do you mean when you are tempted to have feelings of jealousy? You would actually have the feelings unless you gave into the temptation, right? That is, that's what the temptation is all about, to cause you to have feelings of jealousy. So as long as you say no to the temptation, you wouldn't be guilty of sin, right?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rosangela]
#126968
08/27/10 01:57 PM
08/27/10 01:57 PM
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M: Rosangela, do you believe inheriting traits of character is the same thing as cultivating them?
R: No. Good to know. M: Is having them equivalent to developing them?
R: No. Also good to know. M: What if people refuse to nurture the trait of jealousy in a sinful way - are they guilty of being jealous in an unholy way?
R: We are speaking of jealosy as a sinful tendency/trait, not as a positive quality (like "our God is a jealous God"). If you fight against a tendency, say jealousy, this means that when you have thoughts of jealousy (temptation), you are led to feelings of jealousy, against which you fight. But when you are led to have feelings of jealousy you are already guilty of sin to some extent. I believe inherited traits of character are neutral, whereas inherited tendencies (inclinations, propensities) are sinful. Whether or not a certain trait becomes sinful depends on how it is cultivated. The same trait can be cultivated in a sinless way by abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. Inherited tendencies instinctively compel people to indulge sinful tendencies which results in cultivating corresponding traits of character in sinful ways. What do you think - If my quiver is full of poisonous darts, am I guilty of sinning if I refuse to shoot and kill someone with them? Or, am I guilty of sinning based solely on the fact my quiver is full of poisonous darts?
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126993
08/27/10 09:04 PM
08/27/10 09:04 PM
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All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. It is impossible for a thought to cross our mind devoid of feeling. We're simply not wired to have thoughts without feelings. Not everyone is wired the same (Autism, to give just one example).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126996
08/27/10 09:57 PM
08/27/10 09:57 PM
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What do you think - If my quiver is full of poisonous darts, am I guilty of sinning if I refuse to shoot and kill someone with them? Or, am I guilty of sinning based solely on the fact my quiver is full of poisonous darts? If the temptation comes and you think that you would like to use the darts, but manage to refrain from doing so because this will bring bad consequences to you and to others, this feeling/desire is, in itself, a sin, because you can only use the darts to kill people. Please notice that in the case of temptations based on legitimate desires, the desire isn't in itself a sin, but in the case of temptations based on illegitimate desires (which is always the case when sinful tendencies are involved), the desire itself is a sin.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rosangela]
#126999
08/27/10 10:16 PM
08/27/10 10:16 PM
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M: ]What do you think - If my quiver is full of poisonous darts, am I guilty of sinning if I refuse to shoot and kill someone with them? Or, am I guilty of sinning based solely on the fact my quiver is full of poisonous darts?
R: If the temptation comes and you think that you would like to use the darts, but manage to refrain from doing so because this will bring bad consequences to you and to others, this feeling/desire is, in itself, a sin, because you can only use the darts to kill people. Please notice that in the case of temptations based on legitimate desires, the desire isn't in itself a sin, but in the case of temptations based on illegitimate desires (which is always the case when sinful tendencies are involved), the desire itself is a sin. I'm not sure how your observations answer my questions. To clarify, I have in mind people who refuse to use their poisonous darts to kill people because they believe it is morally wrong to do so. BTW, I like how you differentiated between legitimate and illegitimate needs/desires so far as it relates to sin, guilt, and condemnation. When is a temptation based on a legitimate need/desire and not considered a sin in and of itself?
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127108
08/30/10 01:55 AM
08/30/10 01:55 AM
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M: What do you think - If my quiver is full of poisonous darts, am I guilty of sinning if I refuse to shoot and kill someone with them? Or, am I guilty of sinning based solely on the fact my quiver is full of poisonous darts?
R: If the temptation comes and you think that you would like to use the darts, but manage to refrain from doing so because this will bring bad consequences to you and to others, this feeling/desire is, in itself, a sin, because you can only use the darts to kill people. Please notice that in the case of temptations based on legitimate desires, the desire isn't in itself a sin, but in the case of temptations based on illegitimate desires (which is always the case when sinful tendencies are involved), the desire itself is a sin.
M: I'm not sure how your observations answer my questions. To clarify, I have in mind people who refuse to use their poisonous darts to kill people because they believe it is morally wrong to do so. My point is, if you were full of love you wouldn't carry poisonous darts around, the only purpose of which is to kill people. And you wouldn't feel the desire to use the darts. So, if you experience a temptation like "It would be nice if you used this dart to kill such and such person" and you consider that this possibility is an attractive one, you may refrain from doing so because it's morally wrong, because it will bring bad consequences, or whatever, but the fact that you've found the thought of killing someone attractive is in itself a sin (although obviously not such a grave sin as giving in to the temptation and really killing someone). BTW, I like how you differentiated between legitimate and illegitimate needs/desires so far as it relates to sin, guilt, and condemnation. When is a temptation based on a legitimate need/desire and not considered a sin in and of itself? Sometimes I'm tempted to eat between meals because I have the impression I'm hungry. Finding food attractive is not a sin in itself. Someone may be offered a good job with a good salary but he/she will have to work on the Sabbath. Finding the idea of a good job with a good salary attractive is not a sin in itself. Or someone may be tempted to not follow Christ in order not to upset his/her parents. Wishing to honor one's parents and not wishing to lose their love is not sinful in itself. These are some examples that could be cited.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Rosangela]
#127113
08/30/10 02:16 AM
08/30/10 02:16 AM
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M:All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. It is impossible for a thought to cross our mind devoid of feeling. We're simply not wired to have thoughts without feelings.
T:Not everyone is wired the same (Autism, to give just one example).
M:Tom, is autism the only example of people who have been seriously altered as a consequence of 6,000 years of sin? What? Why are you asking this? Where do questions like this come from? My point was that not everyone is wired the same. I didn't say anything about "seriously altered," but responded to your comment, which spoke of how we are wired. Also I wrote, "to give just one example," which implies more than one example could be given, right? Anyway, the point is that we're not all wired the same.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127151
08/30/10 10:43 PM
08/30/10 10:43 PM
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Chill out. Try to be more patient and understanding. Remember, we're not all wired the same. Some of us have feelings. Tread lightly. Thank you. I'm sorry if I came across as impatient and not understanding. My feelings were more appalled and confused as to why you would ask the question you asked. I was trying to see what led you to ask your question. Unfortunately, you didn't answer my question. That is, I still have no idea why you asked the question you did. Please enlighten me. So, it sounds like you are questioning whether or not it is true all temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings because not everyone is wired in way that feelings always accompany thoughts. No, I am questioning just exactly what I said, which is your comment that we are wired the same. You said: M:All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. It is impossible for a thought to cross our mind devoid of feeling. We're simply not wired to have thoughts without feelings. I responded that we're not all wired the same. It is the last sentence (the one that speaks of how we are wired) that I questioned. I gave the example of autism.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127174
08/31/10 06:32 AM
08/31/10 06:32 AM
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I don't know that thoughts and feelings must be combined in the way you are suggesting. I think it's at least possible that these are not linked together for all people, including some who do not have autism. I don't know enough about physiology to assert this absolutely one way or another, and I doubt you do either. I wouldn't reject out of hand the idea. I think it's possible these are normally linked together. I don't know, however.
In addition to feelings, one could (perhaps) add emotions as well. That is, that the thoughts are accompanied by unholy emotions.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127186
08/31/10 03:46 PM
08/31/10 03:46 PM
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Yes, mostly. That is, I agree that the enemy can suggest these things, or they can happen spontaneously as the result of stimuli that we weren't guilty of provoking. It's possible we could be at fault, however. But it's not necessary. That is, simply because we are being tempted does not mean we have committed sin.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
[Re: Tom]
#127190
08/31/10 04:33 PM
08/31/10 04:33 PM
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