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Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: James Peterson] #154687
08/06/13 05:15 AM
08/06/13 05:15 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson


This is much the same as THE Christ is either Michael, the Angel of the LORD, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, the Lamb, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and so forth: depending on the context.

..

No -- your example is backwards.
All those terms above refer to ONE AND THE SAME Person of the Godhead. (Our Savior Jesus Christ)

Whereas your definition of the Holy Spirit seems to say "one term" (Holy spirit) refers to any one of several different heavenly persons or their words -- thus Holy Spirit is no Person at all, but simply a function or title.

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: dedication] #154688
08/06/13 05:18 AM
08/06/13 05:18 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication

Looking at your texts:

1. John 4:24 which says God is spirit only tells us that God the Father and the Holy spirit are of the same substance.

2. The problem is that modern language puts a meaning to "spirit" (as in no body or substance) that isn't scriptural. Scripture says there are DIFFERENT types of bodies (see 1 Cor. 15)

3. Actually John 4:24 is saying God the Father is an intelligent Being and those who worship Him will worship with intelligence and in truth.


1. No. Jesus said "God is Spirit" and in another place, God said, "Be holy, for I AM HOLY." Our Father is the Holy Spirit, as much as our Saviour is the Holy Spirit, and each angel too. The angels come to us on behalf of God in the name of Jesus Christ.

2. I NEVER said that the Holy Spirit has "no body or substance". I said, instead, that the Holy Spirit does not have flesh and blood like we do. Jesus said so.

3. No. Jesus was telling the Samaritan woman that God was not an idol located in either Jerusalem or Samaria, but an invisible Being that is accessible only through our mind. He is someone with whom you can communicate anywhere at any time through your thoughts.

...
..

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: dedication] #154689
08/06/13 05:24 AM
08/06/13 05:24 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson


This is much the same as THE Christ is either Michael, the Angel of the LORD, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, the Lamb, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and so forth: depending on the context.

..

No -- your example is backwards.
All those terms above refer to ONE AND THE SAME Person of the Godhead. (Our Savior Jesus Christ)

Whereas your definition of the Holy Spirit seems to say "one term" (Holy spirit) refers to any one of several different heavenly persons or their words -- thus Holy Spirit is no Person at all, but simply a function or title.


I used that example to illustrate a principle: that context is important in matters of interpretation. When you see "the Lamb", it conjures up images of self-sacrifice.

Why didn't you read further?

...
..

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: dedication] #154691
08/06/13 05:30 AM
08/06/13 05:30 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
What does the word "another" mean?

When Jesus says,
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

was He talking about Himself, or an essence of Himself? Or about "another"?

This "other" One (another Comforter) will not testify about Himself, (John 16:13) but about Christ. (John 15:26)

Of course there are texts that seem to say it is Christ "coming to us". For the nature of the Godhead is that when ONE of the three is present, all three are present. For they know each others thoughts as if they were their own


1. The Comforter was already present with the disciples when Jesus Christ was talking to them. He said, "He (the Comforter) DWELLS WITH YOU and will be in you."

2. The Comforter is an angel. Heb. 1:14 says, they are "all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation." And to John was sent one to tell him of things to come. See Rev. 1:1

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: dedication] #154692
08/06/13 05:34 AM
08/06/13 05:34 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
The Holy Spirit is many things:

... the HOLY SPIRIT refers to different heavenly Beings: sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son, sometimes, the angel of God, or, metaphorically, sometimes the word of Truth. It is like the Prime Minister can refer to Stephen Harper, or Pierre Trudeau, or John MacDonald, etc., etc.: depending on the year.

...
..

So according to your understand there is no Holy Spirit, it only refers to a "job" that can be filled by any heavenly being?


No. It is a TERM that is much the same as God. We have God, the Father; and then we have God, the Son: both are worthy of our worship because both were involved in our creation.

NO ONE ELSE! Rev. 22:3 says, "the throne of God AND of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him." There are only two of them in that capacity.

...
..

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: James Peterson] #154700
08/06/13 08:35 PM
08/06/13 08:35 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson


This is much the same as THE Christ is either Michael, the Angel of the LORD, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, the Lamb, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and so forth: depending on the context.

..

No -- your example is backwards.
All those terms above refer to ONE AND THE SAME Person of the Godhead. (Our Savior Jesus Christ)

Whereas your definition of the Holy Spirit seems to say "one term" (Holy spirit) refers to any one of several different heavenly persons or their words -- thus Holy Spirit is no Person at all, but simply a function or title.


I used that example to illustrate a principle: that context is important in matters of interpretation. When you see "the Lamb", it conjures up images of self-sacrifice.

Why didn't you read further?

...
..


True the word "lamb" must be read in context. The word refers to young sheep. However, whenever it is speaking of the "The lamb of God" it is NOT referring to a young sheep but to Christ our Lord and Savior -- a very distinct individual.

The same with the word "spirit" -- the word can mean many things. BUT the HOLY SPIRIT is a very distinct individual. He is not an angel or the person of God the Father or the person of God the Son, He is the third person of the Godhead.

The ONENESS of the Godhead does not negate that there are three distinct individuals within that ONENESS.

They know each others thoughts as if they were their own -- thus the Holy Spirit's presence is the presence of the fullness of the Godhead. Just as Jesus' presence is the presence of the fullness of the Godhead.

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: James Peterson] #154701
08/06/13 08:44 PM
08/06/13 08:44 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
The Holy Spirit is many things:

... the HOLY SPIRIT refers to different heavenly Beings: sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son, sometimes, the angel of God, or, metaphorically, sometimes the word of Truth. It is like the Prime Minister can refer to Stephen Harper, or Pierre Trudeau, or John MacDonald, etc., etc.: depending on the year.

...
..

So according to your understand there is no Holy Spirit, it only refers to a "job" that can be filled by any heavenly being?


No. It is a TERM that is much the same as God. We have God, the Father; and then we have God, the Son: both are worthy of our worship because both were involved in our creation.

..


The word or term "god" also must be read in context. It is a title and refers to a "function. There are many false "gods". The term is also used to refer to Baal and other false gods.

But that doesn't take away the fact that God -- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are the one and only true Godhead.

While "spirit" is a word with different meanings--
The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead, (not just a function done by angels or other heavenly Being.)

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: dedication] #154702
08/06/13 09:29 PM
08/06/13 09:29 PM
dedication  Online Content
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WHEN people hear the term “spirit,” what comes to their minds? Many believe that these words mean something invisible and immortal that exists inside us. They think that at death this invisible part leaves the body and continues to live.
Many believe that these "departed spirits" can come back, thus spiritualism grows popular. But scripture makes it plain those "departed spirits" are devils (fallen angels).Matt 8:16

Let's consider the Bible’s use of the term “spirit.”
Bible writers used the Hebrew word ru′ach or the Greek word pneu′ma when writing about the “spirit.” The Scriptures themselves indicate the meaning of those words. For instance, Psalm 104:29 states: “If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit [ru′ach], they expire, and return to their dust.” And James 2:26 notes that “the body without spirit [pneu′ma] is dead.” In these verses, then, “spirit” refers to that which gives life to a body. Without spirit, the body is dead.

So every person alive in that sense has "spirit", but it does not necessarily have anything to do with the Holy Spirit.
It is the spirit that sustains a person through illness ( Prov 18:14 ), but the spirit of the troubled person can be crushed ( Psalm 34:18 ). This spirit can be impaired or diminished as well as renewed or increased.
So "spirit" can mean our attitude to life as well.

"Ruah" can also refer to the will. Those whose spirits God had stirred up went up to rebuild the temple ( Ezr 1:5 ). Caleb had a different spirit from the other spies ( Num 14:24 ) and thus was resolute in his assessment relative to the conquest of the land. The psalmist prays for a steadfast spirit ( Psalm 51:10 ).

We are to worship in spirit and truth -- again this refers to our attitude, motives and belief.

In the New Testament spirit is also seen as that dimension of human personality whereby relationship with God is possible ( Mark 2:8 ; Acts 7:59 ; Rom 1:9 ; 8:16 ; 1 Cor 5:3-5 ). It is this human spiritual nature that enables continuing conversation with the divine Spirit ( Rom 8:9-17 ).

So yes indeed, the word 'spirit' applies even to human beings, and to angels etc.

BUT all that does not negate the reality of the third person of the Godhead -- the HOLY SPIRIT, and most certainly does NOT justify confusing "spirit" with the "HOLY SPIRIT".

When speaking of the Holy Spirit, "the comforter", in John 14-16 Jesus refers to HIM with the masculine pronoun. Now the word itself is neuter and the correct grammatical pronoun would be "it", but Christ did not follow the rules of grammar when referring to the Holy Spirit, Christ repeatedly used the pronoun HE: A pronoun showing us that this Spirit was a "divine person".
One Who would not speak of HIMSELF, but point people to Christ. (John 16:3, John 15:26)

The Holy Spirit is a Divine Person whose great purpose is to shape our sinful spirits (our attitudes, motives, view of life, and lives) into spirits that communicate with God.

The Holy Spirits speciality is to repair our spirits!

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: dedication] #154769
08/09/13 12:39 AM
08/09/13 12:39 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Some good analysis Dedication. Thanks for that.

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Charity] #154770
08/09/13 12:52 AM
08/09/13 12:52 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
From the several contacts I've had with it, the denial of the person-hood of the Holy Spirit is invariably coupled with the denial of the eternal existence of Christ. The reason for that coupling seems to be that several of our Advent pioneers, excluding Ellen White, held these views initially. From what I've seen they came to a better understanding.


I need to correct the underlined part above. Several of the pioneers initially viewed Christ as not being co-eternal with the Father. They believed he was begotten at an infinitely early period of the universe (which is an incomprehensible thought). But I've not found any evidence so far that any of the pioneers denied the person-hood of the Holy Spirit.

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