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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127089
08/29/10 07:50 PM
08/29/10 07:50 PM
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OP
Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I'm sorry you believe I'm trying to proof-text Isa 28. I am merely trying to establish who said what to whom and when and the methodology they employed. I believe if we can nail down these facts then we will be in a better position to apply the principles to other situations.
The methodology employed was - "precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." The question is, What did this method look like and sound like to the Jews during the time Isa 28 was unfolding in real time? You are, in my opinion, still making the mistake of assuming that "line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" was a method. You can only analyse its use as a method if in fact it was a method (at least if it ever was a method before the late 19th century when Ellen devised a method based on this phrase). You have to begin by establishing that Isaiah intended it as a method and further that he employed it as a method in this verse or anywhere else before analysing this verse or any other verse by a method based on this phrase can make any kind of sense.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: vastergotland]
#127095
08/29/10 09:31 PM
08/29/10 09:31 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Perhaps process is better than method?
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127097
08/29/10 09:47 PM
08/29/10 09:47 PM
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OP
Active Member 2011
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Ok, replace "method" with "process" in my post above and proceed with replying towards my concern shown there. :P
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127105
08/30/10 12:48 AM
08/30/10 12:48 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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If not a method or a process - what then? What does it mean?
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127115
08/30/10 07:57 AM
08/30/10 07:57 AM
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OP
Active Member 2011
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Mike, you previously gave biblical examples which you think parallel this chapter. Let me try doing the same.
God told Israel, I will feed you. And God gave Israel manna to eat. But Israel said, we dont like manna, we want chicken like we ate in Egypt. God replied, lets try it your way, and gave them chicken. Many in Israel died from overeating on chicken.
God told Israel, I will be your king. And God put Samuel as His PM. But Israel said, Your PM Samuel is old and his sons are no fit replacements, we want a king like our neighbours have. And God said, lets try it your way, and gave them a king. And Israel was alternately oppressed and lead astray by kings to their own demise.
God told Israel, "Come now, let us reason together," (Isa 1) But Israel said, Your words are "bla, bla, bla" ("precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." ) And God said, lets do it your way, and let them hear only "bla, bla, bla", (precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.) And Israel went into Babylon for 70 years of captivity to learn that the words of the Lord are indeed meant for reasoning together and not a divine form of "bla, bla, bla" (precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.)
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: vastergotland]
#127124
08/30/10 03:52 PM
08/30/10 03:52 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Okay, so I hear you saying, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" is a type of expression or colloquialism that basically is the same thing as saying, "Blah, blah, blah". Now, since we're from two different parts of the world, what does "blah, blah, blah" mean to you? To me it's a verbal ellipse (...). Rather than taking the time to repeat everything someone said you rather rudely truncate it indicating you are bored and disapproving.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127128
08/30/10 04:06 PM
08/30/10 04:06 PM
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OP
Active Member 2011
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Your understanding of the phrase "bla, bla, bla" is a good summary of the reaction some people have towards God and His communication with humans. This is indeed one side to the use of this phrase as found in Isaiah 28. Other sides have been (apparently unsuccessfully) presented in some of my previous posts. The general idea remains the same throughout them all, the drunk priests expressing their disapproval with God and His prophet Isaiah.
Note again that it is the rebellious people who bring this attitude to the discussion.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: vastergotland]
#127152
08/30/10 10:52 PM
08/30/10 10:52 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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The answer seems to be, Repeating the same message over and over again in the simplest terms possible. Ellen White suggested employing this method when leading young people and non-SDAs unto a knowledge of all truth. In terms of what you are saying Isaiah meant, this would be the same prophet speaking the same words over and over again in a simple way. However, the "line upon line, precept upon precept" method (as we commonly understand it) applies to something altogether different, which is to take little bits of verses and phrases from many different authors, and piece them together.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: vastergotland]
#127191
08/31/10 04:46 PM
08/31/10 04:46 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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Your understanding of the phrase "bla, bla, bla" is a good summary of the reaction some people have towards God and His communication with humans. This is indeed one side to the use of this phrase as found in Isaiah 28. Other sides have been (apparently unsuccessfully) presented in some of my previous posts. The general idea remains the same throughout them all, the drunk priests expressing their disapproval with God and His prophet Isaiah.
Note again that it is the rebellious people who bring this attitude to the discussion. Still trying to wrap my mind around what you're saying. So, "precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" is an expression in the Bible that represents "the drunk priests expressing their disapproval with God and His prophet Isaiah" - is that what you're saying? It's akin to saying, "blah, blah, blah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yadi yadi yada, whatever." PS - I understand you disagree it means gathering everything the Bible has to say on a certain topic and then arriving at a theological conclusion. I also understand you disagree it means gingerly, gradually indoctrinating young people and non-SDAs in the 28 fundamental beliefs.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127197
08/31/10 05:44 PM
08/31/10 05:44 PM
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OP
Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Your understanding of the phrase "bla, bla, bla" is a good summary of the reaction some people have towards God and His communication with humans. This is indeed one side to the use of this phrase as found in Isaiah 28. Other sides have been (apparently unsuccessfully) presented in some of my previous posts. The general idea remains the same throughout them all, the drunk priests expressing their disapproval with God and His prophet Isaiah.
Note again that it is the rebellious people who bring this attitude to the discussion. Still trying to wrap my mind around what you're saying. So, "precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" is an expression in the Bible that represents "the drunk priests expressing their disapproval with God and His prophet Isaiah" - is that what you're saying? It's akin to saying, "blah, blah, blah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yadi yadi yada, whatever." Yep, thats exactly what I am saying. PS - I understand you disagree it means gathering everything the Bible has to say on a certain topic and then arriving at a theological conclusion. I also understand you disagree it means gingerly, gradually indoctrinating young people and non-SDAs in the 28 fundamental beliefs.
Now the topical study of the scriptures is a biblical concept (For instance this: 11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.), it just isnt an Isaiah 28 concept. And your second example is most likely the meaning given the sentence by Ellen, wherefore it is within its context if you specify that you are quoting her and not Isaiah.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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