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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Rosangela] #127867
09/29/10 03:57 PM
09/29/10 03:57 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
T:It's the only argument that is reasonable. When there are millions of worlds, with trillions of inhabitants, keeping the law, it's pretty silly to argue that it can't be kept.

R:This is not silly at all, but very clever.


No, this is silly. The questions you ask below are clever, but they aren't asking if the law could be kept, but if it should be kept. That's a different question.

Obviously the law could be kept, as there were already quadrillions of creatures-hours of law-keeping to register this fact.

Quote:
It's one thing to keep the law for a time; it's quite another to keep it forever. Satan himself had kept it for a long time, until the moment he decided to rebel against it. The same had happened to man. And the same could happen to anyone. He hoped to instill these thoughts in the minds of other creatures: Is the law faulty and oppressive, like Lucifer said, and, if so, why should we continue to obey it? Is it restrictive of our liberty? Why do we need a law, anyway? Why can't we set it aside, like he did? Does the law make forgiveness impossible? Is God selfish for requiring us to obey it? If they did not receive an adequate answer, these questions would lead to the spreading of sin to the worlds above.


I agree these are also questions that needed to be answered, in addition to the question as to whether fallen man could keep the law.

Quote:
Satan was not arguing that man, as he was created, could not keep the law, but that fallen man could not keep the law

Fallen man in his natural state really can't keep the law.


The question was if man, after fallen, could keep the law at all. Christ proved he could.

Quote:
R:Does man's fallen nature include his mind? That's the point.
T: The 1888 Messengers were clear on this point.

R:What I'm asking is, Does man's fallen nature include his mind? Yes or No?


Here's the quote:

Quote:
He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. Don’t go too far. He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh; not in the likeness of sinful mind. Do not drag His mind into it. His flesh was our flesh; but the mind was "the mind of Christ Jesus."


Given this was said, how could "sinful flesh" include the mind?

As Jones points out, we should leave Christ's mind out of this. No one asserts that Christ's mind was different than what it was; selfish, or anything like that. It was His flesh that was like ours.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Rosangela] #127868
09/29/10 04:18 PM
09/29/10 04:18 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
R: Like personality traits, character traits are inherited, but they have to do with the mind, and they determine, partly at least, how we think and the decisions we make.
T: If our DNA determines the decisions we make, how do we have free will?

R:Because we are not just our DNA; we are also our experiences.


If our DNA determines the decisions we make, it determines our experiences as well. How does address the free will question?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Mountain Man] #127869
09/29/10 04:31 PM
09/29/10 04:31 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
In what ways do you think our connection differs from the connection A&E enjoyed before the Fall? And, how does it differ from the connection Jesus had while here in the "likeness of sinful flesh"? also, how does it relate to RBF?

Good question. A & E's was an unceasing connection with God - at the moment this connection was severed, they fell. Jesus' connection with God was always unceasing - till the very end, despite His circumstances and feelings. Since we are still growing, our connection with God is more intermittent.

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Tom] #127870
09/29/10 04:54 PM
09/29/10 04:54 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
No, this is silly. The questions you ask below are clever, but they aren't asking if the law could be kept, but if it should be kept. That's a different question.

As I said before, keeping the law for a time is one thing. Keeping it forever is quite another. His implied argument was that, sooner or later, you would arrive at a point where the law would conflict with what you perceived to be your highest good - at this point you would arrive at the conclusion that it couldn't be kept. This had happened with him and others and, according to him, would happen with every creature.

Quote:
T: Satan was not arguing that man, as he was created, could not keep the law, but that fallen man could not keep the law
R: Fallen man in his natural state really can't keep the law.
T: The question was if man, after fallen, could keep the law at all. Christ proved he could.

I'm not speaking of what Christ proved, bur of what Satan said he had proved. And of course, when man fell he didn't prove that "fallen man cannot keep the law." This makes no sense at all. The DA passage shows what he said he had proved: “In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed. ... When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed.”

Quote:
R:What I'm asking is, Does man's fallen nature include his mind? Yes or No?
T: As Jones points out, we should leave Christ's mind out of this. No one asserts that Christ's mind was different than what it was; selfish, or anything like that. It was His flesh that was like ours.

Yes, leave Christ's mind out of this. What I'm asking is, Does man's fallen nature include his mind? Yes or No?

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Tom] #127871
09/29/10 04:57 PM
09/29/10 04:57 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
If our DNA determines the decisions we make, it determines our experiences as well. How does address the free will question?

???
Our experiences is all that happens to us. What does this have to do with our DNA?

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Rosangela] #127875
09/29/10 07:43 PM
09/29/10 07:43 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Tom
If our DNA determines the decisions we make, it determines our experiences as well. How does address the free will question?

???

Our experiences is all that happens to us. What does this have to do with our DNA?


Here's our conversation:

Quote:
R: Like personality traits, character traits are inherited, but they have to do with the mind, and they determine, partly at least, how we think and the decisions we make.
T: If our DNA determines the decisions we make, how do we have free will?

R:Because we are not just our DNA; we are also our experiences.


T:If our DNA determines the decisions we make, it determines our experiences as well. How does this address the free will question?


What I'm asking is your answer doesn't seem to address my question regarding DNA and free will. I asked if our DNA determines our decisions, then how do we have free will?

Ok, you answered that we are not only our DNA, but we are also our experiences. Our experiences result from the decisions we make, and if our DNA determines the decisions we make, then it determines our experiences as well. This was one point I was making.

The second point is I don't see how your response addresses my question regarding free will (i.e., your response that we are not only our DNA, but also our experiences as well; I don't see how this addresses my question that if our DNA determines our decisions, then how do we have free will?)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Tom] #127876
09/29/10 08:11 PM
09/29/10 08:11 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding #127870, if you interpret Satan's claim that the law couldn't be kept to mean, "you would arrive at a point where the law would conflict with what you perceived to be your highest good - at this point you would arrive at the conclusion that it couldn't be kept," that seems fine to me.

Regarding the second paragraph, Satan made the argument that fallen man could not keep the law. The "sons and daughters of Adam," from the EGW quote. Christ proved this to be false by taking fallen man's nature and perfectly keeping the law.

Quote:
R:What I'm asking is, Does man's fallen nature include his mind? Yes or No?
T: As Jones points out, we should leave Christ's mind out of this. No one asserts that Christ's mind was different than what it was; selfish, or anything like that. It was His flesh that was like ours.

R:Yes, leave Christ's mind out of this. What I'm asking is, Does man's fallen nature include his mind? Yes or No?


The flesh and the mind are two different things. The flesh, of itself, cannot act contrary to the will of God. This precludes it from including the mind, because if the mind were included, this statement would be false.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Rosangela] #127884
09/29/10 11:03 PM
09/29/10 11:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: In what ways do you think our connection differs from the connection A&E enjoyed before the Fall? And, how does it differ from the connection Jesus had while here in the "likeness of sinful flesh"? also, how does it relate to RBF?

R: Good question. A & E's was an unceasing connection with God - at the moment this connection was severed, they fell. Jesus' connection with God was always unceasing - till the very end, despite His circumstances and feelings. Since we are still growing, our connection with God is more intermittent.

What made it possible for A&E to sever their connection? And, how does it differ from us severing the connection? Also, is it possible to be connected, partaking of the divine nature, while simultaneously standing before God guilty and condemned because we inhabit sinful flesh?

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Tom] #127902
09/30/10 06:07 PM
09/30/10 06:07 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
What I'm asking is your answer doesn't seem to address my question regarding DNA and free will. I asked if our DNA determines our decisions, then how do we have free will?

Our decisions are a product of our personality and character (motives). Through our experiences, we learn the effects which result from certain causes, we acquire values, etc. These become part of our character and impact our decisions. But at a very young age, before we are exposed to all these things, our decisions are just made on the basis of the character traits and the personality traits we've inherited.

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Tom] #127903
09/30/10 06:27 PM
09/30/10 06:27 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
R:Yes, leave Christ's mind out of this. What I'm asking is, Does man's fallen nature include his mind? Yes or No?
T: The flesh and the mind are two different things. The flesh, of itself, cannot act contrary to the will of God. This precludes it from including the mind, because if the mind were included, this statement would be false.

Here is the crux of our disagreement. Obviously the mind is included in man's nature. And of course man's "fallen nature" includes his fallen (carnal) mind.
Besides, you are misunderstanding the EGW passage. What she is explaining in the passage is precisely the opposite of what you are saying. She is pointing out that the word "flesh" in the Bible includes more than just the body, because the body of itself would not be able to act contrary to the will of God. She is saying that "flesh" is the same as "carnal lusts," and "carnal lusts" have to do with the mind, not the body. That's why the way to crucify the flesh is not by inflicting pain to the body, but by expelling the corrupt thought.

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