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Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: kland] #128429
10/27/10 04:37 PM
10/27/10 04:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Will not pastors and politicians, when the time is right, eventually agree enforcing Sunday laws is necessary to appease the wrath of God?
And would they have the same view of God as you do excepting for which day is the Sabbath?

What are you implying? Here's what Ellen wrote about it:

Quote:
I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree, and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword, and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer: "Not one of Adam's family have passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death, a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {CET 108.2}

Protestantism shall give the hand of fellowship to the Roman power. Then there will be a law against the Sabbath of God's creation, and then it is that God will do His "strange work" in the earth.--7BC 910 (1886). {LDE 130.1}

Satan puts his interpretation upon events, and they [leading men] think, as he would have them, that the calamities which fill the land are a result of Sunday-breaking. Thinking to appease the wrath of God, these influential men make laws enforcing Sunday observance. They think that by exalting this false rest-day higher, and still higher, compelling obedience to the Sunday law, the spurious sabbath, they are doing God service. Those who honor God by observing the true Sabbath are looked upon as disloyal to God, when it is really those who thus regard them who are themselves disloyal, because they are trampling under foot the Sabbath originated in Eden. {Mar 176.4}

I saw that the slave-master would have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and all the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1}

Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: Rosangela] #128433
10/27/10 05:07 PM
10/27/10 05:07 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
There are a lot more people living in dangerous situations than in the past. If we consider recorded history, there are events that are likely not to have been recorded because of a limited impact.

For example, consider the Haiti earthquake. According to Wiki, this is one of the 10 deadliest natural disasters recorded. If this earthquake had happened somewhere else besides Haiti, like in San Francisco, the damage would have been far less, like the 1989 earthquake. The SF and Haiti earthquakes were pretty much the same strength, but one resulted in one of the 10 worst natural disasters and the other wouldn't make a list of the top 1000, just because of where they occurred.

Many of the tsunamis mentioned in the 2000's were small tsunamis. It's hard to imagine that these would have been recorded in earlier centuries, which doesn't mean they weren't happening.

From a statistical standpoint, to make any conclusions from the data that Wiki has seems not worth much. This isn't to make a statement one way or the other in terms of whether or not earthquakes or tsunamis are increasing in frequency; just that to make some sort of conclusion from the Wiki data seems unwarranted.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: Mountain Man] #128439
10/27/10 06:09 PM
10/27/10 06:09 PM
K
kland  Offline
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MM, what is the wrath of God?

Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: Rosangela] #128441
10/27/10 06:20 PM
10/27/10 06:20 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
What Tom said.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela

I have no doubt that in my short 50-year life I have seen an increase in these natural phenomena
What if you had said, I have no doubt that in my long 50-year life...?
If you had used "long", it might make more sense, but you say, "short" indicating not long enough? Such as, The small sample size conclusively indicates such-and-such, is not usually used in scientific papers. Put another way other than what Tom elaborated, do you think those in Jesus' day would know about any tsunamis happening in India regardless of what the damage was?

Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: kland] #128444
10/27/10 10:36 PM
10/27/10 10:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
MM, what is the wrath of God?

In addition to the passages posted above, Ellen also wrote:

Quote:
The law of God is made void. We see and hear of confusion and perplexity, want and famine, earthquakes and floods; terrible outrages will be committed by men; passion, not reason, bears sway. The wrath of God is upon the inhabitants of the world, who are fast becoming as corrupt as were the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. Already fire and flood are destroying thousands of lives and the property that has been selfishly accumulated by the oppression of the poor. The Lord is soon to cut short His work and put an end to sin. Oh, that the scenes which have come before me of the iniquities practiced in these last days, might make a deep impression on the minds of God's professing people. As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of man shall be revealed. The Lord is removing His restrictions from the earth, and soon there will be death and destruction, increasing crime, and cruel, evil working against the rich who have exalted themselves against the poor. Those who are without God's protection will find no safety in any place or position. Human agents are being trained and are using their inventive power to put in operation the most powerful machinery to wound and to kill. {8T 49.3}

Every act of resistance makes it harder to yield. Being the leaders of the people, the priests and rulers felt it incumbent on them to defend the course they had taken. They must prove that they had been in the right. Having committed themselves in opposition to Christ, every act of resistance became an additional incentive to persist in the same path. The events of their past career of opposition are as precious treasures to be jealously guarded. And the hatred and malignity that inspired those acts are concentrated against the apostles. {TM 74.1}

The spirit of God revealed its presence unto those who, irrespective of the fear or favor of men, declared the truth which had been committed to them. Under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit's power, the Jews saw their guilt in refusing the evidence that God had sent; but they would not yield their wicked resistance. Their obstinacy became more and more determined, and worked the ruin of their souls. It was not that they could not yield, for they could, yet would not. It was not alone that they had been guilty, and deserving of wrath, but that they armed themselves with the attributes of Satan, and determinedly continued to be opposed to God. Every day, in their refusal to repent, they took up their rebellion afresh. They were preparing to reap that which they had sown. The wrath of God is not declared against men merely because of the sins which they have committed, but for choosing to continue in a state of resistance, and, although they have light and knowledge, repeating their sins of the past. If they would submit, they would be pardoned; but they are determined not to yield. They defy God by their obstinacy. These souls have given themselves to Satan, and he controls them according to his will. {TM 74.2}

How was it with the rebellious inhabitants of the antediluvian world? After rejecting the message of Noah, they plunged into sin with greater abandon than ever before, and doubled the enormity of their corrupting practices. Those who refuse to reform by accepting Christ find nothing reformative in sin; their minds are set to carry their spirit of revolt, and they are not, and never will be, forced to submission. The judgment which God brought upon the antediluvian world declared it incurable. The destruction of Sodom proclaimed the inhabitants of the most beautiful country in the world incorrigible in sin. The fire and brimstone from heaven consumed everything except Lot, his wife, and two daughters. The wife, looking back in disregard of God's command, became a pillar of salt. {TM 75.1}

How God bore with the Jewish nation while they were murmuring and rebellious, breaking the Sabbath and every other precept of the law! He repeatedly declared them worse than the heathen. Each generation surpassed the preceding in guilt. The Lord permitted them to go into captivity, but after their deliverance His requirements were forgotten. Everything that He committed to that people to be kept sacred was perverted or displaced by the inventions of rebellious men. Christ said to them in His day, "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?" And these were the men who set themselves up as judges and censors over those whom the Holy Spirit was moving to declare the word of God to the people. (See John 7:9-23, 27, 28; Luke 11:37-52.) {TM 75.2}

In infinite mercy a last warning message has been sent to the world, announcing that Christ is at the door and calling attention to God’s broken law. But as the antediluvians rejected with scorn the warning of Noah, so will the pleasure lovers of today reject the message of God’s faithful servants. The world pursues its unvarying round, absorbed as ever in its business and its pleasures, while the wrath of God is about to be visited on the transgressors of His law. {BLJ 197.4}

The triumph of the wicked is short. The pleasures of sin are ever purchased at a tremendous cost; for the wrath of God is continually hanging over the sinner, and in the end, he will learn indeed that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Every corrupt passion, every wrong feeling, or sinful act, not only dishonors God, but brings guilt and misery upon ourselves. Only in the strength of God can we succeed in subduing the enemies of our souls. While the foes of Christ are continually at work as Satan's agents to entice us into sin, we must firmly resist their advances, looking to God for counsel and assistance. Every sinful desire must be repressed, every wrong trait overcome, or they will prove our ruin. {ST, January 13, 1881 par. 10}

God bears long with the perversity and stubbornness of men. By warnings and reproofs he shows them their true condition. Again and again he calls them to repentance. Though the multitudes wax bold in sin, trampling upon his mercy and defying his justice, still he pours his blessings upon them. Oh, how infinitely beyond human comprehension are the Lord's mercy and forbearance toward the children of men! Yet there is a limit, beyond which men may not go on in sin. When the fullness of iniquity is reached,--as with the Amorites, and the children of Israel who fell in the wilderness,--then the wrath of God is visited upon the transgressors of his law. {ST, December 15, 1881 par. 11}

There are many who teach that man may violate God's law with impunity. These men seek to conceal the hideous character of sin, by clothing it with garments of righteousness. They may observe all the forms of religion, but their hearts are at enmity with God. They look upon his law as a yoke of bondage, because it forbids them to indulge their sinful desires. "Thou shalt not," placed at every avenue of sin, is the restriction of the just and holy One. Those who, like Hophni and Phinehas, disregard the commandments of God, and lead others to transgress, are Satan's agents to destroy souls. They say to the sinner, "It shall be well with thee," when God says, "I will punish the transgressor with my wrath, I will take him away in my hot displeasure." {ST, December 15, 1881 par. 12}

God may bear long with the sins of men, but in his own time he will vindicate his authority. Although the wicked may say, "My way is hid from the Lord," yet when his interposition is needed, he will show that he beholds all the works of the children of men. In the days of Noah, the wickedness of man became so great that it was necessary for God to assert his authority and punish the transgressors of his law. A crisis had come, and the Lord declared the limits of his forbearance toward that guilty race. He sent his faithful servant with a message of warning, giving them one hundred and twenty years in which to turn from their sins. They rejected and despised God's love, and when the measure of their iniquity was full; when the boundaries of divine mercy were passed, the Lord swept that wicked race from the earth by the waters of the flood. {ST, December 15, 1881 par. 13}

The wrath of God involves the "act of punishment", His "strange act". For example, sinners were burned alive.

Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: Tom] #128449
10/28/10 12:29 AM
10/28/10 12:29 AM
Rosangela  Offline OP
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
There are a lot more people living in dangerous situations than in the past. If we consider recorded history, there are events that are likely not to have been recorded because of a limited impact.

Sorry, Tom, but I disagree here. As I said, shorelines have always been densely populated regions, so the occurrence of a tsunami can hardly be missed. You can question the numbers referring to the first centuries but, as I said, take then the numbers from the 18th century onward - 300 years can give us a reasonable time range and in the 18th century news from an important event could already reach the whole world (although not so fastly as now).
I don't know what you consider as small tsunamis - those which cause few deaths, those which aren't very tall or those which don’t cause a great destruction? This is relative, you know. Some of them are very tall but kill few people (like the 1958 Lituya Bay), some of them kill few or no people but cause great destruction, and some of them are not so tall but kill many people.

Anyway, take for instance the years 1950 to 2000, in which the Wiki mentions 11 tsunamis. Obviously if the 11 mentioned were not the only ones, they were at least the bigger ones. The number of dead people ranged from zero to 7,000.

NOw, since you said most of the 2000's tsunamis were "small," let's consider only the bigger ones in this period:

2004: Indian Ocean tsunami - 300,000 people were killed; the initial surge was measured at a height of approximately 33 m (108 ft)

2006: South of Java tsunami - height varied from 2 meters at Cilacap to 6 meters at Cimerak beach, where it swept away and flattened buildings as far as 400 meters away from the coastline. More than 800 people were reported missing or dead.

2007: Solomon Islands tsunami. In the Solomon Islands the wave was up to 5 m (17 feet) tall, 39 people were killed, and the sweeping water travelled 300 meters inland in some places. On the island of Choiseul, a wall of water reported to be 9.1 m (30 feet) high swept almost 400 meters inland, destroying everything in its path. Officials estimate that the tsunami displaced more than 5000 residents all over the archipelago.

2009: Samoa tsunami - the waves measured 14 m (46 ft) at their highest on the Samoan coast; 189 people were killed, especially children.

2010: Indonesia tsunami, the day before yesterday – 272 dead, 412 missing.

Even reducing the tsunamis in the 2000’s from 8 to 5, if you compare 11 tsunamis in 50 years with 5 in 10 years, there is a substantial increase.

Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: kland] #128450
10/28/10 12:38 AM
10/28/10 12:38 AM
Rosangela  Offline OP
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
What if you had said, I have no doubt that in my long 50-year life...?
If you had used "long", it might make more sense, but you say, "short" indicating not long enough? Such as, The small sample size conclusively indicates such-and-such, is not usually used in scientific papers. Put another way other than what Tom elaborated, do you think those in Jesus' day would know about any tsunamis happening in India regardless of what the damage was?

I meant, 50 years is not very much in view of thousands of years of history, but it is a reasonably long time for one to observe a change in certain trends.
I think I answered your second question in my answer to Tom.

Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: Rosangela] #128457
10/28/10 01:41 AM
10/28/10 01:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Sorry, Tom, but I disagree here. As I said, shorelines have always been densely populated regions, so the occurrence of a tsunami can hardly be missed.


Not all shorelines are densely populated, even today, when there are billions more people on earth than there used to be. Also, for vast periods of times, tsunamis in places such as the Americas or Africa would have been "missed."

Quote:
I don't know what you consider as small tsunamis - those which cause few deaths, those which aren't very tall or those which don’t cause a great destruction?


Small is not very tall.

Quote:
Anyway, take for instance the years 1950 to 2000, in which the Wiki mentions 11 tsunamis. Obviously if the 11 mentioned were not the only ones, they were at least the bigger ones. The number of dead people ranged from zero to 7,000.

NOw, since you said most of the 2000's tsunamis were "small," let's consider only the bigger ones in this period:

2004: Indian Ocean tsunami - 300,000 people were killed; the initial surge was measured at a height of approximately 33 m (108 ft)

2006: South of Java tsunami - height varied from 2 meters at Cilacap to 6 meters at Cimerak beach, where it swept away and flattened buildings as far as 400 meters away from the coastline. More than 800 people were reported missing or dead.

2007: Solomon Islands tsunami. In the Solomon Islands the wave was up to 5 m (17 feet) tall, 39 people were killed, and the sweeping water travelled 300 meters inland in some places. On the island of Choiseul, a wall of water reported to be 9.1 m (30 feet) high swept almost 400 meters inland, destroying everything in its path. Officials estimate that the tsunami displaced more than 5000 residents all over the archipelago.

2009: Samoa tsunami - the waves measured 14 m (46 ft) at their highest on the Samoan coast; 189 people were killed, especially children.

2010: Indonesia tsunami, the day before yesterday – 272 dead, 412 missing.

Even reducing the tsunamis in the 2000’s from 8 to 5, if you compare 11 tsunamis in 50 years with 5 in 10 years, there is a substantial increase.


First of all, you'd have to assume that Wiki recorded all of the tsunamis from 1950 to 2000. Wiki didn't make this claim. They just recorded "historic" tsunamis. There could have been tsunamis that occurred that Wiki didn't mention.

Also, this way of analyzing data is inherently flawed. For example, look at the 6 year period from 1958 to 1964. Wiki mentions 5 tsunamis for that period. That's more frequent than 5 in 10 years. Someone living in 1964 could have reasoned like you are, "There's a substantial increase in tsunamis," but then there are only 5 more mentioned up to 2000. So should we conclude:

1.Tsunamis were increasing from 1958.
2.Then they stopped.
3.Now they're increasing again (but not as much as before).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: Rosangela] #128463
10/28/10 01:33 PM
10/28/10 01:33 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela

I meant, 50 years is not very much in view of thousands of years of history, but it is a reasonably long time for one to observe a change in certain trends.
Is it?

Re: Is the number of earthquakes in the world increasing or not? [Re: Tom] #128465
10/28/10 01:45 PM
10/28/10 01:45 PM
Rosangela  Offline OP
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Not all shorelines are densely populated, even today, when there are billions more people on earth than there used to be. Also, for vast periods of times, tsunamis in places such as the Americas or Africa would have been "missed."

I don't believe there were any substantial change from the 18th century till now in the areas occupied, just in the number of people who inhabit them. Today more than half of the world population lives in shorelines.

Quote:
First of all, you'd have to assume that Wiki recorded all of the tsunamis from 1950 to 2000. Wiki didn't make this claim.

As I said, if there were others beside these, they were very small, right?

Quote:
Also, this way of analyzing data is inherently flawed. For example, look at the 6 year period from 1958 to 1964. Wiki mentions 5 tsunamis for that period. That's more frequent than 5 in 10 years.

Not in fact, because there were 8 from 2004 to 2010 (7 listed by Wiki and 1 which occurred this last week). This is 5 in 6 years against 8 in 6 years. But you might have a point. Let's see what happens in the next few years.

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