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Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Tom] #128911
11/16/10 03:55 PM
11/16/10 03:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Amen! Yes, Jesus clearly demonstrated the just and merciful attributes of God's character. No doubt about it. However, I would appreciate it if you answered the following questions:

1. Do you agree with Ellen that the Father is "plainly revealed in the Old Testament Scriptures"?

2. Do you agree with her that "Christ is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New"?

3. Do you agree with Ellen that "the wrath of an offended God fell upon them in judgments" when Elijah prayed for fire to burn alive the two bands of fifty?

4. In what way do you see "the Elijah incident" and the incident described in GC 35-37 as "the same principle"?

Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Mountain Man] #128914
11/16/10 04:36 PM
11/16/10 04:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ellen had much to say about the "wrath of an offended God":

Quote:
The sea, lashed to fury by the merciless winds, represented to him [John on Parmos] the wrath of an offended God. {AA 572.1}

Will young men now humble their hearts before God and give themselves to His service? Will they not accept the holy trust, and become light-bearers to a world ready to be consumed by the wrath of an offended God? {CME 38.1}

Were it not for the communication between heaven and earth, there would be no light in the world. Like Sodom and Gomorrah all would perish beneath the wrath of an offended God. But the world is not left in darkness. The long-suffering and mercy of God is still extended to the children of men. It is His design that the divine rays of light which emanate from the throne of God shall be received in our hearts and reflected by the children of light. {2SAT 5.2}

But the Son of God, who was with the Father before the world was, took pity upon us in our lost condition, and offered to step in between us and the wrath of an offended God. Said Jesus, I will give my life for them. I will take the burden of the sins of the world upon men, and will make a way possible for these transgressors to find pardon and enjoy thy favor again, that they may repent and keep thy commandments, and again have access to the tree of life. God consented to give his only Son to die for lost man. {YI, August 1, 1852 par. 6}

His mind was borne from His own suffering to the crime of His persecutors, and the terrible but just retribution that would be theirs. He pitied them in their ignorance and guilt. No curses were called down upon the soldiers who were handling Him so roughly, no vengeance was invoked upon the priests and rulers who were the cause of all His suffering, and were then gloating over the accomplishment of their purpose, but only a plea for their forgiveness—“for they know not what they do.” {BLJ 24.4}

In the exercise of the long suffering of God, He gives to nations a certain period of probation, but there is a point which if they pass, there will be the visitation of God in His indignation; He will punish. The world has been advancing from one degree of contempt for God's law to another, and the prayer may be appropriate at this time, "It is time for Thee, Lord, to work; for they have made void Thy law." (Psalms 119:126). In answer to this prayer ere long the wrath of an offended God will be poured out without mercy, then as we approach this time, be careful what advice and counsel we give to the people who need to be strengthened in Christian experience, lest you prove yourself to be like Aaron who consented to make the golden calf. {1888 479.2}

The higher the profession, the more deceptive the pretention, the more likely the unwary are to be deceived, and the greater will be the wrath of an offended God. Those who make high claims, and who disregard the law of God, are registered in the books of heaven as rebels against the divine government. "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." {ST, January 31, 1895 par. 2}

Jesus charged his disciples to preach the remission of sin in his name among all nations; but they themselves were not empowered to remove one stain of sin from the children of Adam. Nor were they to execute judgment against the guilty; the wrath of an offended God was to be proclaimed against the sinner; but the power which the Roman Church assumes to visit that wrath upon the offender is not established by any direction of Christ; he himself will execute the sentence pronounced against the impenitent. {3SP 245.1}

In earnest, agonizing prayer they call for God to pass them not by. The kings, the mighty men, the lofty, the proud, the mean man, alike bow together under a pressure of woe, desolation, misery inexpressible; heart-anguished prayers are wrung from their lips. Mercy! mercy! Save us from the wrath of an offended God! A voice answers them with terrible distinctness, sternness, and majesty: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." {2T 41.2}

Satan will oppose every effort they may make. He will present the world before them in its most attractive light, as he did to the Saviour of the world when he tempted Him forty days in the wilderness. Christ overcame all the temptations of Satan, and so may your children. They are serving a hard master. The wages of sin is death. They cannot afford to sin. They will find it expensive business. They will meet with eternal loss in the end. They will lose the mansions Jesus has gone to prepare for those who love Him, and will lose that life which measures with the life of God. And this is not all. They must suffer the wrath of an offended God for having withheld from Him their service and given all their efforts to His worst enemy. Your children have not yet had the clear light, and condemnation only follows the rejection of light. {2T 286.2}

Moses here typifies Christ. At this critical time Moses manifested the True Shepherd's interest for the flock of His care. He pleaded that the wrath of an offended God might not utterly destroy the people of His choice. And by his intercession he held back the arm of vengeance, that a full end was not made of disobedient, rebellious Israel. He directed Aaron what course to pursue in that terrible crisis when the wrath of God had gone forth and the plague had begun. Aaron stood with his censer, waving it before the Lord, while the intercessions of Moses ascended with the smoke of the incense. Moses dared not cease his entreaties. He took hold of the strength of the Angel, as did Jacob in his wrestling, and like Jacob he prevailed. Aaron was standing between the living and the dead when the gracious answer came: I have heard thy prayer, I will not consume utterly. The very men whom the congregation despised and would have put to death were the ones to plead in their behalf that the avenging sword of God might be sheathed and sinful Israel spared. {3T 358.1}

Some people believe the expression "the wrath of an offended God" refers to God sadly, regretfully withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to cause death and destruction. But that's not the picture Ellen paints above.

Ellen wrote the following strong words to a man who had cheated on his wife:

Quote:
My spirit is stirred within me. I cannot hold my peace. Recent developments have caused me anguish of spirit and agony of soul; and then when I think of the misery of poor Sister J, whose happiness you have ruined forever, then I inquire, What will be your reward for these things? We are to be judged according to the deeds done in the body. We feel that it would be just and right for you to be brought to receive the punishment you so justly merit, but we remember the words of Scripture, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." That which you have sown you shall reap. Yes, you will reap a bountiful cup. No frost shall blight it; no mildew blast it; no cankerworm devour it. You have sown to the flesh; you shall reap corruption. A heavy retribution awaits you. {TSB 130.1}

Not only have you sinned against your family and cast a stain upon your children, the fruit of your body, which shall cleave to them like the leprosy, but you have plucked the joy, the happiness, from Sister J's fireside forever. {TSB 131.1}

Have you become so hardened that you have no fear of God, of the judgment, of eternity, when your acts, however secret, are to pass in review before God? Do you realize that your evil doings are faithfully chronicled in heaven, written in the book, and that the Word of God, the statute book, is to judge you in that day? {TSB 131.2}

I cannot imagine people who believe as I stated above about the expression "the wrath of an offended God" saying something to a sinner like Ellen said to the adulterer. I suspect they would exercise kindness and caution hoping it would melt their hearts into submission and repentance. Not so the prophetess.

Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Mountain Man] #128915
11/16/10 04:37 PM
11/16/10 04:37 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
M:Amen! Yes, Jesus clearly demonstrated the just and merciful attributes of God's character. No doubt about it. However, I would appreciate it if you answered the following questions:

1. Do you agree with Ellen that the Father is "plainly revealed in the Old Testament Scriptures"?


To someone who can see with the clarity of Christ, yes. I think one who doesn't know Christ would be very likely to misinterpret the Father, just as we saw actually happened. Before Christ came, despite the clear revelation of the Father, the earth was dark with misunderstanding of God. He was viewed as severe and harsh, waiting to punish people, as opposed to be as Christ revealed Him.

The problem is, we don't see with the eyes of Christ.

Quote:
2. Do you agree with her that "Christ is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New"?


Since Christ and the Father are one, this is the same question as 1, isn't it?

Quote:
3. Do you agree with Ellen that "the wrath of an offended God fell upon them in judgments" when Elijah prayed for fire to burn alive the two bands of fifty?


I've answered this.

Quote:
4. In what way do you see "the Elijah incident" and the incident described in GC 35-37 as "the same principle"?


I don't think this matters. That is, how *I* see this principle applies isn't what's important. What's important is that it applies.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Tom] #128916
11/16/10 05:09 PM
11/16/10 05:09 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
M:Ellen had much to say about the "wrath of an offended God"

The following comes to mind:

Quote:
While God has desired to teach men that from His own love comes the Gift which reconciles them to Himself, the archenemy of mankind has endeavored to represent God as one who delights in their destruction. Thus the sacrifices and the ordinances designed of Heaven to reveal divine love have been perverted to serve as means whereby sinners have vainly hoped to propitiate, with gifts and good works, the wrath of an offended God.(PK 685)


It's too bad this isn't more believed.

[quote]Some people believe the expression "the wrath of an offended God" refers to God sadly, regretfully withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to cause death and destruction.


Yes, while others believe that God is "bloodthirsty" for violence.

Quote:
But that's not the picture Ellen paints above.


I suppose this depends upon the reader, and the view the reader has of God's character. It sure seems to me be she's being consistent with what she wrote elsewhere. For example, you quoted the following as a picture which is different than the idea presented in GC 35-37:

Quote:
But the Son of God, who was with the Father before the world was, took pity upon us in our lost condition, and offered to step in between us and the wrath of an offended God. Said Jesus, I will give my life for them. I will take the burden of the sins of the world upon men, and will make a way possible for these transgressors to find pardon and enjoy thy favor again, that they may repent and keep thy commandments, and again have access to the tree of life. God consented to give his only Son to die for lost man. {YI, August 1, 1852 par. 6}


However, I read this and it seems perfectly consistent with the PK 685 quote I cited. The PK 685 quote seems to be presenting the exact opposite of the "bloodthirsty" idea.

Quote:
Have you become so hardened that you have no fear of God, of the judgment, of eternity, when your acts, however secret, are to pass in review before God? Do you realize that your evil doings are faithfully chronicled in heaven, written in the book, and that the Word of God, the statute book, is to judge you in that day? {TSB 131.2}

M:I cannot imagine people who believe as I stated above about the expression "the wrath of an offended God" saying something to a sinner like Ellen said to the adulterer.


Why not? I would say something exactly like what she wrote. It makes perfect sense to me.

Quote:
I suspect they would exercise kindness and caution hoping it would melt their hearts into submission and repentance. Not so the prophetess.


If you consider the life of Christ, and how He treated others, you will see that He treated people differently depending upon the circumstances. For one who understands God's character and His principles, the following applies:

Quote:
It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him. {DA 480.3}


However, if a person doesn't know Christ, then God may appeal in a different way, involving fear of punishment or hope of reward. The Holy Spirit will guide one who is trying to reach one for Christ how one should proceed.

Please note in her warning that she spoke of how the person would be judged, that all deeds will pass before God, that nothing will be secret.

How we interpret these things goes back to our view of God's character. If we see God as "bloodthirsty" for violence, and this is how we understand that He gets revenge, that will color how we read these counsels. But I don't believe this is how Christ saw the Father. Why? Because this isn't how Christ revealed the Father.

Once again, I believe, as I've been saying for years, that we should start with a foundation of Christ as the revelation of God. As EGW suggested, it would be good to spend a thoughtful hour each day meditating upon the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes. The sight of Him will soften our hearts, which are much too hard.

Ellen White could right as she did because she had a soft heart. She wrote:

Quote:
My spirit is stirred within me. I cannot hold my peace. Recent developments have caused me anguish of spirit and agony of soul; and then when I think of the misery of poor Sister J...


We can see from this how she was moved.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Tom] #128932
11/17/10 02:03 AM
11/17/10 02:03 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Do you know of anyone who believes God is "bloodthirsty for violence"?

Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Mountain Man] #128945
11/17/10 02:12 PM
11/17/10 02:12 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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Perhaps it's not God who is "bloodthirsty" for violence but some who are bloodthirsty for God to do violence?

Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: kland] #128950
11/17/10 04:05 PM
11/17/10 04:05 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Do you know of anyone who believes God is "bloodthirsty for violence"?


You've used this language in the past. I'm seen others express similar thoughts. For example, whenever a natural disaster occurs.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Tom] #128967
11/17/10 08:00 PM
11/17/10 08:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, do you think I believe God is "bloodthirsty for violence"? Or, do you think I believe God is jealous for justice? As it is written:

"God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish; but His forbearance has a limit, and when the boundary is past, there is no second probation. His wrath will go forth and He will destroy without remedy. {7BC 946.5}

God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. "All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Mountain Man] #128974
11/17/10 08:59 PM
11/17/10 08:59 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, do you think I believe God is "bloodthirsty for violence"? Or, do you think I believe God is jealous for justice?


I think you perceive these to be either synonymous or very closely related.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How can it be assured sin won't rise a second time? [Re: Tom] #129006
11/18/10 03:53 PM
11/18/10 03:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Too bad. You couldn't be more wrong about me. By the way, you have yet to explain why Jesus burned alive the two bands of fifty in response to Elijah's prayers. You hinted, or so it seemed, at it being a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, that He didn't intend for them to burned alive. If so, what do you mean?

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