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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13371
04/24/05 07:18 AM
04/24/05 07:18 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
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quote:
I would appreciate your advice and insight regarding a certain point. The SOP makes it clear that Satan rebelled before Jesus created mankind. In fact, one of the reasons he became jealous of Jesus was because he wasn't invited to participate in the planning phase of mankind.

Satan was banished to earth before Jesus created mankind on the earth. So, I've pondered about why Jesus chose to create mankind on the same planet where Satan was banished. It seems like a rather bold move, doesn't it? I've come up with reasons that make sense to me, but I'd like hear what you think about it before I share them. If someone else reading this post would like to share something about it, that would be appreciated, too.

You're making a couple of assumptions I'm not aware can be substantiated. First of all, I've heard the theory that Satan was upset because he wasn't included in the planning process of the creation of man, but I've never seen a reference to this. I think this is one of the apocraphal EGW things.

Secondly, I believe all the unfallen worlds had trees with forbidden fruit on them, and Satan had access to all of these trees, just like he did on earth. Satan wasn't tied to earth so that he couldn't physically leave it. In Job he is presented as appearing with the other angels at a counsel with God. So Satan was able to go pretty much anywhere he wanted. How God wins the Great Controversy is not by force, but by the revelation of truth; by making clear to all what He is really like and what the principles of His government are in contrast to what Satan is really like and what the priciples of his government are. God wins by eliminating Satan's influence.

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13372
04/25/05 02:53 AM
04/25/05 02:53 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Here are some quotes that deal with these insights:

3SG 36
Before the fall of Satan, the Father consulted his Son in regard to the formation of man. They purposed to make this world, and create beasts and living things upon it, and to make man in the image of God, to reign as a ruling monarch over every living thing which God should create. When Satan learned the purpose of God, he was envious at Christ, and jealous because the Father had not consulted him in regard to the creation of man.

SR 27
God knew that such determined rebellion would not remain inactive. Satan would invent means to annoy the heavenly angels and show contempt for His authority. As he could not gain admission within the gates of heaven, he would wait just at the entrance, to taunt the angels and seek contention with them as they went in and out.

CET 98
Then I saw two trees. One looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, "None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall." {CET 98.1}

RH 3-9-1886
God's government included not only the inhabitants of heaven but of all the created worlds; and Satan thought that if he could carry the intelligences of heaven with him in rebellion, he could also carry with him the other worlds… The controversy was not to be taken into the other worlds of the universe; but it was to be carried on in the very world, on the very same field, that Satan claimed as his.

PP 78
The holy inhabitants of other worlds were watching with the deepest interest the events taking place on the earth. In the condition of the world that existed before the Flood they saw illustrated the results of the administration which Lucifer had endeavored to establish in heaven, in rejecting the authority of Christ and casting aside the law of God.

ST 2-22-1910
The angels and the holy inhabitants of other worlds watch with intense interest the events taking place on this earth. Now as the close of the great controversy between Christ and Satan draws near …

EW 290
I heard shouts of triumph from the angels and from the redeemed saints, which sounded like ten thousand musical instruments, because they were to be no more annoyed and tempted by Satan and because the inhabitants of other worlds were delivered from his presence and his temptations.

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13373
04/25/05 04:35 AM
04/25/05 04:35 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Thanks for the quotes. I had often heard that Christ was envious of the plan to create man, but hadn't seen the quote.

It sounds like Satan had pretty much free reign to go whereever he wants. It's not until the Millenium that he is bound to earth, right?

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13374
04/25/05 12:48 PM
04/25/05 12:48 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
Satan was banished to earth before Jesus created mankind on the earth.
Mike,

Which quotes could substantiate this?

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13375
04/25/05 04:04 PM
04/25/05 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Rosangela, the following paragraphs are taken from the Story of Redemption. They establish that God created mankind after Satan was banished from heaven and cast down to the earth.

Was Satan allowed to roam the universe and tempt, whenever and however, the unfallen inhabitants of other worlds? Well, the fact God restricted Satan's access to tempt Adam and Eve to the forbidden tree, the fact none of the other FMAs have disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit on their planet, and the fact they are earnestly watching Satan's every move on Earth - these facts imply Satan is focusing his time and attention here and not abroad.

SR 13-31
Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before. Angels in heaven mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in heaven. {SR 19.1}

The Father consulted His Son in regard to at once carrying out their purpose to make man to inhabit the earth. He would place man upon probation to test his loyalty before he could be rendered eternally secure. If he endured the test wherewith God saw fit to prove him, he should eventually be equal with the angels. He was to have the favor of God, and he was to converse with angels, and they with him. He did not see fit to place them beyond the power of disobedience. {SR 19.2}

After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the Father and Son carried out their purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in their own image. They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now God said to His Son, "Let us make man in our image." As Adam came forth from the hand of his Creator he was of noble height and of beautiful symmetry. He was more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and was well proportioned. His features were perfect and beautiful. His complexion was neither white nor sallow, but ruddy, glowing with the rich tint of health. Eve was not quite as tall as Adam. Her head reached a little above his shoulders. She, too, was noble, perfect in symmetry, and very beautiful. {SR 20.2}

Satan trembled as he viewed his work. He was alone in meditation upon the past, the present, and his future plans. His mighty frame shook as with a tempest. An angel from heaven was passing. He called him and entreated an interview with Christ. This was granted him. He then related to the Son of God that he repented of his rebellion and wished again the favor of God. He was willing to take the place God had previously assigned him, and be under His wise command. Christ wept at Satan's woe but told him, as the mind of God, that he could never be received into heaven. Heaven must not be placed in jeopardy. All heaven would be marred should he be received back, for sin and rebellion originated with him. The seeds of rebellion were still within him. He had, in his rebellion, no occasion for his course, and he had hopelessly ruined not only himself but the host of angels also, who would then have been happy in heaven had he remained steadfast. The law of God could condemn but could not pardon. {SR 26.1}

His followers were seeking him, and he aroused himself and, assuming a look of defiance, informed them of his plans to wrest from God the noble Adam and his companion Eve. If he could in any way beguile them to disobedience, God would make some provision whereby they might be pardoned, and then himself and all the fallen angels would be in a fair way to share with them of God's mercy. If this should fail, they could unite with Adam and Eve, for when once they should transgress the law of God they would be subjects of God's wrath, like themselves. Their transgression would place them, also, in a state of rebellion, and they could unite with Adam and Eve, take possession of Eden, and hold it as their home. And if they could gain access to the tree of life in the midst of the garden, their strength would, they thought, be equal to that of the holy angels, and even God Himself could not expel them. {SR 27.3}

God assembled the angelic host to take measures to avert the threatened evil. It was decided in heaven's council for angels to visit Eden and warn Adam that he was in danger from the foe. Two angels sped on their way to visit our first parents. The holy pair received them with joyful innocence, expressing their grateful thanks to their Creator for thus surrounding them with such a profusion of His bounty. Everything lovely and attractive was theirs to enjoy, and everything seemed wisely adapted to their wants; and that which they prized above all other blessings, was the society of the Son of God and the heavenly angels, for they had much to relate to them at every visit, of their new discoveries of the beauties of nature in their lovely Eden home, and they had many questions to ask relative to many things which they could but indistinctly comprehend. {SR 29.2}

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13376
04/26/05 04:37 AM
04/26/05 04:37 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
One of the quotes presents poignant view of God's character. Christ wept when he explained to Satan that he could not return to heaven, because of the seeds of rebellion that remained in Him. God will also weep for His children at the judgment at the end. He will cry out, "How can I let you go?" He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Regarding Satan and the earth, there's no question that he is concentrating on earth now, but this is after man has fallen. You made the claim that Satan was banished to earth, but it appears that he came to earth of his own free will, as he went to other places in an attempt to tempt other worlds to distrust God. He was successful here, so has continued his efforts here. It would be a waste of time to go to the other worlds. Noone would listen to him.

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13377
04/26/05 09:32 AM
04/26/05 09:32 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Yes, I agree with what Tom said. I don't believe Satan was banished specifically to earth.

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13378
04/26/05 04:07 PM
04/26/05 04:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
It would be interesting to learn the timing of things related to when Satan rebelled and when God created beings on other worlds and tested them with a forbidden tree. I suspect they were created before Satan rebelled as it seems mankind was considered a "new and distinct order" after he was banished from heaven. This suggests that other FMAs were tested with the forbidden tree before Satan rebelled.

1BC 1081
All heaven took a deep and joyful interest in the creation of the world and of man. Human beings were a new and distinct order. They were made "in the image of God," and it was the Creator's design that they should populate the earth (RH Feb. 11, 1902). {1BC 1081.3}

ML 126
Man was the crowning act of the creation of God, made in the image of God, and designed to be a counterpart of God. . . . Man is very dear to God, because he was formed in His own image. {ML 126.2}

FLB 82
Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience ... {FLB 82.2}

Regarding Satan and Earth, it is clear that God "cast him out into the earth", rather than Satan choosing himself to live here because he was unsuccessful in causing FMAs to fall on other planets. I haven't found any convincing evidence that Satan visited other planets. But it seems reasonable to assume. There is one quote where she says, referring to the death of Satan, "... and the inhabitants of other worlds were delivered from his presence and his temptations." (1SG 212)

Revelation
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Sister White makes a curious comment about the "continent of heaven" and earth. What do you make of it?

SD 244
Though earth was struck off from the continent of Heaven and alienated from its communion, Jesus has connected it again with the sphere of glory. {SD 244.5}

TKM 82
The transgression of man had separated earth from heaven, and finite man from the infinite God. As an island is separated from a continent, so earth was cut off from heaven, and a wide channel intervened between man and God. Jesus bridged this gulf, and made a way for man to come to God{TMK 82.2}

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13379
04/27/05 04:04 PM
04/27/05 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Getting back to "the process of conversion." According to the SOP, what happens during the process of conversion. And, what happens the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth?

DA 172
The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

SC 28, 29
We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

SC 34
Even one wrong trait of character, one sinful desire, persistently cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel. Every sinful indulgence strengthens the soul's aversion to God. The man who manifests an infidel hardihood, or a stolid indifference to divine truth, is but reaping the harvest of that which he has himself sown. In all the Bible there is not a more fearful warning against trifling with evil than the words of the wise man that the sinner "shall be holden with the cords of his sins." Proverbs 5:22. {SC 34.1}

Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13380
04/28/05 03:45 AM
04/28/05 03:45 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
He[God] was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. (ST 1/20/90)
Given that God has been incorrectly misrepresented as one who is cruel and aribtrary, who causes the suffering and death of His creatures, and Jesus came to reveal the truth about God, in order to set men right with God, I would think one of the first traits of a converted person would be to believe the truth which Christ came to teach.

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