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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: Mountain Man] #133766
05/25/11 01:06 PM
05/25/11 01:06 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
During this time a shaking will happen among SDAs and only those members faithful to the 28 fundamental beliefs will remain. The others, a majority, will join the ranks of the opposition.


If the SDA’s Fundamental Beliefs continue to be at the elementary, mere profession stage that they currently are, then I do not see anyone in the present Church objecting to them, let alone leaving the Church. That is indeed why they continue to be members of the SDA Church today. I rather see that when these beliefs will be advanced to the Spiritual and practical level that they should be, and also expand to include more, currently non-observed Biblical requirements, most revolving around the “fuller” understanding of God’s Sabbath, (cf. this blog post), that most will refuse to advance in that Biblical light. Like with the letter of the law observance of the Sabbath vs. Sunday, most Christians prefer the one-hour Sunday substitute vs. the 24-hour Sabbath law. People naturally agree to whatever does not require a large part of their actual time, means, attention and/or effort.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: Mountain Man] #133835
05/27/11 10:54 PM
05/27/11 10:54 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
But when Sunday-keeping Christians begin blaming SDAs for the rash of disasters decimating their personal fortunes, I believe the prophecy regarding the two witnesses will have another fulfillment in the persecution and martyrdom they will heap on SDAs until probation closes.


This statement reminds me of a couple of comments I’ve made elsewhere:

(1) I have commented in this post on the Biblical fact that God, as He is doing by holding back the “Four Winds,” will not allow such prophesied, pivotal, natural disasters to begin to take place until the due/full Gospel work, which inherently involves the Three Angels Message, is actually done, as God expects for it to be done.

(2) As stated before, as shown in this post, the prophesy of Rev 11 focuses on the leadership. The “rest” of God’s professed people are not subject to this judgement, which is actually done to them by God’s Two Witnesses.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: NJK Project] #134139
06/04/11 01:38 PM
06/04/11 01:38 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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What about the question? Where is the judgment of the living identified in scripture?

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: Charity] #134143
06/04/11 03:01 PM
06/04/11 03:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Good question. I'm glad we have the SOP to guide us and that Jesus has not left us to our own devices to discern and determine the truth. The Great Controversy provides biblical testimony regarding the judgment of the dead and the living. There is no clearer or more authoritative study on the subject than this. What is your opinion of her study?

She also wrote:

Quote:
We are living in the great antitypical day of atonement. Jesus is now in the heavenly sanctuary, making reconciliation for the sins of his people, and the judgment of the righteous dead has been going on almost forty years. How soon the cases of the living will come in review before this tribunal we know not; but we do know that we are living in the closing scenes of earth's history, standing, as it were, on the very borders of the eternal world. It is important that each of us inquire, How stands my case in the courts of Heaven? Will my sins be blotted out? Am I defective in character, and so blinded to these defects by the customs and opinions of the world, that sin does not appear to me to be as exceedingly offensive to God as it really is? It is no time now to allow our minds to be absorbed with the things of earth, while we give only occasional thoughts to God, and make but slight preparation for the country to which we are journeying. {ST, May 29, 1884 par. 3}

In the typical day of atonement, every man was required to afflict his soul before God. He was not to afflict the souls of others, but the work was between God and his own soul. The same work of self-examination and humiliation is required of each of us now; and I entreat you to make thorough work for eternity. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found; call ye upon him while he is near." Precious, golden moments which should be spent in seeking the inward adorning of a meek and quiet spirit, are frittered away in adorning the dress, and in other trifling matters not at all essential to comfort. {ST, May 29, 1884 par. 4}

In the following passages Ellen addresses the allegations she claimed under inspiration the judgment of the living had begun:

Quote:
Several times during the past winter [1888-89.] I have met the report that, during the Conference at Minneapolis, "Sister White was shown that the judgment, which since 1844 had been passing upon the righteous dead, had now begun upon the living." This report is not true. A similar rumor, which has been afloat for about two years, originated in this wise: In a letter written from Basel, Switzerland, to a minister in California I made a remark substantially as follows: "The judgment has been over forty years in progress on the cases of the dead, and we know not how soon it will pass to the cases of the living." The letter was read to different persons, and careless hearers reported what they thought they heard. Thus the matter started. The report from Minneapolis arose from someone's misunderstanding of a statement to the same effect as the one quoted from the letter. There is no other foundation for either report than this. {5T 692.1}

Secondly, report has it that a minister now living has been seen by me in vision as saved in the kingdom of God, thus representing that his final salvation is assured. There is no truth whatever in this statement. The word of God lays down the conditions of our salvation, and it rests wholly with ourselves whether or not we will comply with them. {5T 692.2}

Says the Revelator: "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." {5T 692.3}

"Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless." "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." "And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: to the end He may stablish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints." "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." {5T 692.4}

Here we have the Bible election plainly stated. Here are specified who shall be crowned in the city of God and who shall have no part with the just. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." {5T 693.1}

The third report states that, in the Conference at Minneapolis, "Sister White confessed that in some of her remarks at that meeting she had been in error and had manifested a wrong spirit." This report also is wholly without foundation. I could not forbear giving to the Conference the light that God had given me. This I presented both in messages of warning and reproof and in words of hope and faith. But nothing spoken by me at that meeting has been taken back or confessed to be wrong. I still view matters from the same standpoint, and am of the same mind, as when at Minneapolis. All the dangers which I then saw, and which brought such a burden upon me, have been more clearly developed since that meeting. As I become more fully acquainted with the condition of our churches I see that every warning given at Minneapolis was needed.

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: Charity] #134145
06/04/11 04:51 PM
06/04/11 04:51 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
What about the question? Where is the judgment of the living identified in scripture?


Succinctly said, I see that there are various phases of the final pre advent judgement, depending on how much light a definite group of people has and should have heeded (cf. 1 Pet 4:17). There are most times brief indications when a phase begins and/or when it ends. These phases of this judgement in the book of Revelation are as follows:

-Judgement is about to be set up (Rev 8:2-6 = (in its Historical fulfillment Dan 7:10-12ff)

-Judgement on pointedly Church Leaders (Rev 11:1-13a = EGW’s Whirlwind Vision)

-Some survive the Judgement (Rev 13:b cf. Rev 14:7)

-Following the development of Final Events (Rev 12-15:4a; -including Rev 14:14-15:4 which are a not necessarily, due to the symbolism not done by Jesus Himself (Rev 14:2 - “one like unto a son of man”) nor literally in heaven (Rev 15:1-4 - “sea of glass), but reflect actions and states that can and will occur on earth before the Second Coming by the 144,000 and great multitude); it is said that: ‘all will fear God and glorify his name (=Rev 14:7) because His righteous acts (i.e., from just judgements) have been revealed.’ (vs. 4) And then immediately follows the 7 Last Plagues starting with the second apartment of the Sanctuary being said to be opened (vs. 5 = again (Rev 11:19).
This is now done due to the completed judgement on the rest of the (non-SDA) world, by now all at least professed/nominal Christians, (= ‘the Gentiles in the outer court’ - Rev 11:2 = Luke 21:24). Rev 15:8 indicates this ending of ministration in the Sanctuary unto the end when God’s glory fills the temple (= signals the utter end of all of these judgement processes). And the 7 Last Plagues are indeed said/understood to be acts of judgement by God, thus the execution of judgements (see Rev 16:5-7; cf. 9b).

So in summary, the judgement on the living is not a concise and single event, but is subdivided into different sessions depending on the particular ‘lighted group’ people were/are in.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: Mountain Man] #134148
06/04/11 08:32 PM
06/04/11 08:32 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
What is your opinion of her study?


I agree with the quotes MM. But where in scripture is the judgment of the living? Do you think it's in scripture?

NJK quotes three places that he applies to different groups at different times.

What about the rest of you. Please, don't be shy.

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: NJK Project] #134155
06/04/11 10:24 PM
06/04/11 10:24 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
It is Theologically significant, and must be emphasized, that the angels who are dispatched to effectuate the 7 Last Plague judgements, come out of the Temple/Sanctuary, where the Second Apartment, Investigative judgement/judgement of the Living had been taking place. (Rev 15:5, 6)


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: Charity] #134157
06/04/11 10:37 PM
06/04/11 10:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
M: What is your opinion of her study?

MS: I agree with the quotes MM. But where in scripture is the judgment of the living? Do you think it's in scripture?

I take it you don't think she substantiated the judgment of the living from the Bible. I think she did a very good job of it in the Great Controversy. What do you think about the Bible passages she quoted - Do they prove the judgment of the living?

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: Mountain Man] #134181
06/05/11 05:22 PM
06/05/11 05:22 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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USA
MM, I'm asking for your opinion. smile Daniel 8:14 establishes the Investigative Judgment. But do You think there are any passages in scripture that describe the judgment of the living?

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? [Re: Charity] #134184
06/05/11 11:35 PM
06/05/11 11:35 PM
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glenm  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 45
Colorado, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
MM, I'm asking for your opinion. smile Daniel 8:14 establishes the Investigative Judgment. But do You think there are any passages in scripture that describe the judgment of the living?


Hi Mark, there are several ways of showing this from the Bible, beyond the central description in Daniel 7.

One is the core passage in Leviticus 23:27-30, about afflicting one's soul in the leadup to the Day of Atonement. The people were being judged during this time, and those who didn't take the process seriously were cut off.

Another is the measuring-the-temple passages (Ezekiel 40, Zechariah 2, Revelation 11).

A third approach, one that I believe is quite central, is the whole sealing angle.

If we compare some of the key passages in the latter part of the Old Testament with what EGW says, what we find is a model of progressive sealing, with at least the following stages: (a) new believers are sealed, (b) people are sealed before the shaking, (c) people are sealed just after the shaking, (d) people are sealed after the Sunday law test just before the great time of trouble.

This model dovetails with what we find in Ezekiel, for example Ezekiel's commissioning (3:1-11), the sighing/crying/marking passage (9:4-6), the casting of the coals of fire (10:2), God's glory leaving the temple (11:23), and so on.

We know that the sealing depicted by Ezekiel is the same as the one found in Revelation 7. We also know that the sealing is intimately connected with character perfection; see the latter part of the 5T 207-216 chapter.

One of the key points in the process of sealing is that God can use people before they have reached perfection, and when He does use them, their experiences feed back into their own further character development.

In my experience, we tend to use the term "sealing" rather loosely, instead of tying down just what stage of sealing we're talking about.

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