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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Mountain Man]
#134266
06/08/11 12:21 PM
06/08/11 12:21 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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Why not? What does it mean? Have you considered the Hunter story?
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#134282
06/08/11 05:23 PM
06/08/11 05:23 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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GC, you have not yet responded to: The Lord God of heaven ruleth. He alone is above all authorities, over all kings and rulers. The Lord has given special directions in his word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced his prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings. But his warning against the use of intoxicating beverages is not the result of the exercise of arbitrary authority. He has warned men, in order that they may escape from the evil that results from indulgence in wine and strong drink. Degradation, cruelty, wretchedness, and strife follow in the wake of drink. God has laid out the consequences of taking this course of evil, in order that there may not be a turning upside down of his instituted laws; that there may not be misery on all sides, through the increase of evil men who for the sake of gain shall selfishly heap to themselves riches, even through selling strong drink and putting the bottle to their neighbors' lips. The liquor traffic should not be legalized in any of our towns or cities. {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 9} This goes against your idea that God has since the OT raised the standard to include forbidding alcohol. Do you agree?
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Mountain Man]
#134314
06/09/11 02:42 PM
06/09/11 02:42 PM
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FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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MM, in my opinion this discussion has shown that EGW is wrong.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: JAK]
#134321
06/09/11 04:07 PM
06/09/11 04:07 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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JAK, thank you for stating your position plainly.
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#134322
06/09/11 04:11 PM
06/09/11 04:11 PM
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SDA
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K: Maybe it (Deut 14:26 and Prov 31:6-7) doesn't accurately reflect the mind of God.
M: Why not? What does it mean?
K: Have you considered the Hunter story? In the Humane Hunter story the father teaches his son how to kill animals in a humane manner. How does this apply to the texts above? Bear in mind Ellen wrote: The Lord has given special directions in his word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced his prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings.
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Mountain Man]
#134360
06/10/11 06:30 PM
06/10/11 06:30 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
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Yes, I agree with Ellen White, believe that she was correct in that the Bible forbids it regardless of whether one is ignorant of where it says so or not.
I also believe the Bible forbids killing people. Do you see the connection? Just because He forbids something, doesn't mean it's not in the Bible nor does it mean He won't instruct people how to do the forbidden thing (which they insist on doing) in as least of a damaging manner as possible. Whether this relates to taking the tithe money and buying strong drink would require further study. But, "strong drink" doesn't leave much room for grapejuice, does it?
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#134366
06/10/11 08:18 PM
06/10/11 08:18 PM
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FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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...regardless of whether one is ignorant of where it says so or not. Well, I for one am certainly ignorant of where it says so, and evidently so is everyone else. As for "killing people," the Bible expressly forbids this action in the 6th commandment, so there is really no connection to the drinking arguement. (Although the actual word in Hebrew is best translated as "murder" rather than "kill".)
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#134371
06/11/11 02:58 AM
06/11/11 02:58 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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K: Maybe it (Deut 14:26 and Prov 31:6-7) doesn't accurately reflect the mind of God.
M: Why not? What does it mean?
K: Have you considered the Hunter story?
M: In the Humane Hunter story the father teaches his son how to kill animals in a humane manner. How does this apply to the texts above? Bear in mind Ellen wrote: "The Lord has given special directions in his word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced his prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings."
K: Yes, I agree with Ellen White, believe that she was correct in that the Bible forbids it regardless of whether one is ignorant of where it says so or not. I also believe the Bible forbids killing people. Do you see the connection? Just because He forbids something, doesn't mean it's not in the Bible nor does it mean He won't instruct people how to do the forbidden thing (which they insist on doing) in as least of a damaging manner as possible. Whether this relates to taking the tithe money and buying strong drink would require further study. But, "strong drink" doesn't leave much room for grapejuice, does it? No, I don't see a connection between "do not murder" and "do not drink alcohol". Jesus never commanded anyone to commit murder. Nor did He ever permit it or tolerate in the Humane Hunter sense. Jesus did, on the other hand, command godly people to kill ungodly people. For example, combat and capital. I realize you disagree. As for "strong drink" in Deut 14:26 and Prov 31:6-7 I suspect the translators botched it up. "I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words . . ." {EW 220.2} Either this is a valid explanation or JAK is right about Ellen being wrong. Since she said, "I saw", it places things in peril, that is, it implies we cannot trust it when she says "I saw". Either Jesus or Satan showed her what she saw in vision.
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Mountain Man]
#134372
06/11/11 06:00 AM
06/11/11 06:00 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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GC, you have not yet responded to: The Lord God of heaven ruleth. He alone is above all authorities, over all kings and rulers. The Lord has given special directions in his word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced his prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings. But his warning against the use of intoxicating beverages is not the result of the exercise of arbitrary authority. He has warned men, in order that they may escape from the evil that results from indulgence in wine and strong drink. Degradation, cruelty, wretchedness, and strife follow in the wake of drink. God has laid out the consequences of taking this course of evil, in order that there may not be a turning upside down of his instituted laws; that there may not be misery on all sides, through the increase of evil men who for the sake of gain shall selfishly heap to themselves riches, even through selling strong drink and putting the bottle to their neighbors' lips. The liquor traffic should not be legalized in any of our towns or cities. {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 9} This goes against your idea that God has since the OT raised the standard to include forbidding alcohol. Do you agree? Mike, I don't exactly see any contradiction with this statement and those of the Bible. In fact, I see a lot of agreement between them. Let's look at this carefully. | ELLEN WHITE | THE BIBLE | MY COMMENTS |
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| The Lord God of heaven ruleth. He alone is above all authorities, over all kings and rulers. | ...Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings,...(Dan. 2:47) | God is the supreme law maker, and is Ruler over all earthly authorities. Ellen White makes clear reference to this authority over rulers, and that which follows continues in this theme. | | The Lord has given special directions in his word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced his prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings. But his warning against the use of intoxicating beverages is not the result of the exercise of arbitrary authority. | It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: (Prov. 31:4) | The prohibition is here made specifically for kings and rulers. | | He has warned men, in order that they may escape from the evil that results from indulgence in wine and strong drink. Degradation, cruelty, wretchedness, and strife follow in the wake of drink. God has laid out the consequences of taking this course of evil, in order that there may not be a turning upside down of his instituted laws; that there may not be misery on all sides, through the increase of evil men who for the sake of gain shall selfishly heap to themselves riches, even through selling strong drink and putting the bottle to their neighbors' lips. | Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. (Prov. 31:5) | Wine would pervert the judgment of kings and rulers, causing them to "turn upside down" God's laws. | | The liquor traffic should not be legalized in any of our towns or cities. {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 9} | Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic;... (Ezek. 28:18) | "Traffic" can be a pretty negative word in the Bible. Trafficking means more than just participating in something of a private nature. Rather, it means extending one's influence to many (whether for good or for evil). I, too, am against the liquor traffic. |
Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#134395
06/11/11 04:16 PM
06/11/11 04:16 PM
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FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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Nice table, GC. 
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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