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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#134285
06/08/11 07:47 PM
06/08/11 07:47 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
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Colorado, USA
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Any comments on Moses' example? David's? Since he respresents the Branch?
Are you asking why Elijah was translated, but not Moses and David? This is a challenging question. Here are a couple of perspectives. 1. Translation is not the only way to heaven. For example, in the last generation, I am aware of the following groups: (a) martyrs (b) those laid to rest (c) 144,000 (d) those who will be as though they had never been (e) the wicked Suppose that I am out in the world, and come to God and am converted late in the loud cry period. God knows my heart and whether I am safe to save. However, that's not the same as saying that I have developed a righteous character and have learned to depend fully on God, such that I can make it through the great time of trouble. 2. In the case of David, one of the issues was that he was Israel's designated leader, and a very public figure. His problem was not just a momentary failure, but something longer term. It's interesting to consider this quote: I was shown that it was when David was pure, and walking in the counsel of God, that God called him a man after his own heart. When David departed from God, and stained his virtuous character by his crimes, he was no longer a man after God's own heart. God did not in the least degree justify him in his sins, but sent Nathan, his prophet, with dreadful denunciations to David because he had transgressed the commandment of the Lord. God shows his displeasure at David's having a plurality of wives, by visiting him with judgments, and permitting evils to rise up against him from his own house. {1SP 379.1} It wasn't just the sin with Bathsheba, but other things like polygamy. 3. Moses was also a public figure, who had talked with God face to face (Deuteronomy 34:10). Note what EGW says about this situation: He [Satan] triumphed that he had power to overcome Moses with his temptations, and that he could mar his illustrious character and lead him to the sin of taking to himself glory before the people which belonged to God. {Con 26.1}
Another point here is that Moses was nominally a very spiritually mature man, who would be held to a high standard. 4. What about Elijah? It appears to that he had no official role in Israel, at least until some point after Carmel. He was neither a king nor a priest. EGW says that by his failure he cut short his lifework (Ed 150). I used to think that his failure eventually became public knowledge, but it's not clear that this was the case. If you do the chronology, it also appears that Elijah remained on earth for an extended period of time after Carmel, say 15 years. What I do know is that God wanted to use him further in overthrowing Baal worship, and this wasn't possible: Elijah should have trusted in God, who had warned him when to flee and where to find an asylum from the hatred of Jezebel, secure from the diligent search of Ahab. The Lord had not warned him at this time to flee. He had not waited for the Lord to speak to him. He moved rashly. Had he waited with faith and patience, God would have shielded His servant and would have given him another signal victory in Israel by sending His judgments upon Jezebel. {3T 290.1} The whole subject of "translation righteousness" is a hard one to tie down.
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#134286
06/08/11 08:01 PM
06/08/11 08:01 PM
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Also what's your view of the relationship between the 'measuring' and the sealing? I believe the sealing process involves an evaluation of character, which presumably is the same as "measuring the temple". There's an EGW quote that talks about judgment and measuring: The grand judgment is taking place, and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshipers thereof. Remember, when you are walking the streets about your business, God is measuring you; when you are attending your household duties, when you engage in conversation, that God is measuring you. Remember that your words and actions are being daguerreotyped [photographed] in the books of heaven, as the face is reproduced by the artist on the polished plate. {2SAT 53.2}
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: glenm]
#134376
06/11/11 09:55 AM
06/11/11 09:55 AM
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EGW says that by his failure he cut short his lifework (Ed 150). I used to think that his failure eventually became public knowledge, but it's not clear that this was the case. Very interesting. I wasn't aware of that: Not able to completely finish his life work and translated early because of his failure! Quite a lesson isn't it? A failure to trust, even one that appears to have no effect on others still alway has it's consequences.
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#134379
06/11/11 11:18 AM
06/11/11 11:18 AM
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Very interesting. I wasn't aware of that: Not able to completely finish his life work and translated early because of his failure! I rather see from reading that EGW statement in full in Ed 151.1 that God could no longer work mightily through Elijah because of that “failure of Faith”. So Elisha had to be raised up to continue that work in his place. Like Moses before him, the bar of faith was raised quite high for him given the great working of God through him. Yet, in Divine fairness, the rewards for having done that demanding work, and at a “99%” faithfulness rate, were also correspondingly quite high/great, and God is indeed just and faithful. Quite a lesson isn't it? A failure to trust, even one that appears to have no effect on others still alway has it's consequences. The key here, as alway is to ascertain that the message is Biblical. Elijah’s contra-idolatry message clearly was, as corroborated by many statements of God in the Law. That is why the burden of anyone who claims to have a message from God is to make it was transparently Biblically proven as possible. Elijah had done so. Indeed, as stated in this post (Search for “oathmaking”), even his call for no rain was itself also fully Biblical. (See e.g., 1 Kgs 8:35; 2 Chr 7:13, 14; Isa 5:5-7; Jer 3:1-3; cf 14:1-12ff; cf. Zech 14:9ff; 16-19).
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#134405
06/11/11 07:42 PM
06/11/11 07:42 PM
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Also what's your view of the relationship between the 'measuring' and the sealing? I have looked into this a little more, and have an additional thought or two. If you look at the measuring passages in the Bible, it seems like they are mostly corporate rather than individual. I take the notion of measuring a church to (a) be an evaluation of how that church's beliefs are distinct from others, and true to divine light, and (b) how well that church measures up to its stated beliefs. Here are a couple of quotes that illustrate these points: His church is to be a temple built after the divine similitude, and the angelic architect has brought his golden measuring rod from heaven, that every stone may be hewed and squared by the divine measurement and polished to shine as an emblem of heaven, radiating in all directions the bright, clear beams of the Sun of Righteousness. The church is to be fed with manna from heaven and to be kept under the sole guardianship of His grace. Clad in complete armor of light and righteousness, she enters upon her final conflict. The dross, the worthless material, will be consumed, and the influence of the truth testifies to the world of its sanctifying, ennobling character... {TM 17.1}
In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. If her spiritual experience does not correspond to the advantages that Christ, at infinite cost, has bestowed on her, if the blessings conferred have not qualified her to do the work entrusted to her, on her will be pronounced the sentence: "Found wanting." By the light bestowed, the opportunities given, will she be judged. {8T 247.2}
I think the idea of measuring can apply at any time in history. For example, if you were one of the Waldenses, you would be concerned with whether your church was free from the gross spiritual errors of the day. In this sense the sealing of Ezekiel 9:4-6 can apply at any time, in that God's people are always being tested to see if they will embrace truth and reject error. This general application does not preclude a more specific application to the investigative judgment and the end times.
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#134406
06/11/11 08:01 PM
06/11/11 08:01 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
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EGW says that by his failure he cut short his lifework (Ed 150). I used to think that his failure eventually became public knowledge, but it's not clear that this was the case. Very interesting. I wasn't aware of that: Not able to completely finish his life work and translated early because of his failure! Quite a lesson isn't it? A failure to trust, even one that appears to have no effect on others still alway has it's consequences. I have thought about this some more. In the case of Moses and David, one further way of saying why they weren't translated is because they gave occasion for the enemies of God to blaspheme (2 Samuel 12:14). Elijah's case is quite a bit more elusive. If you look at the chronology, he still operated as a prophet for some time after Carmel. For example, we know that he outlasted Ahab and Ahaziah, and was the one who called fire down on the groups of fifty soldiers (2 Kings 1). At an apparently even later point, he wrote a letter to the king of Judah (2 Chronicles 21:12, PK 213). So in exactly what way was Elijah's work cut short? One thought that occurs to me is that he had a specific weakness -- he was afraid of Jezebel, and would have known about all the prophets that were killed at her instigation. So perhaps God could not use him in the specific work of overthrowing Jezebel, and Jehu was used instead (2 Kings 9). In modern terms, there might be a case where a person goes out and does a great work for God, and then collapses when a specific threat is made against him.
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: glenm]
#134688
06/24/11 06:22 PM
06/24/11 06:22 PM
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Yes, Rev 11 talking about measuring seems to be taking an accounting of things. And while that has been done throughout history, and can end at any time for any individual, the chapter is between the 6th and 7th angels sounding.
It also talks about 42 months which translates to 1260 days. Matching the end time in Daniel 12.
The question becomes, does the judgment end when the 1260 days start, or sometime within it? If not before, probably very shortly after it begins as the beast from the pit will make war against them. They will have made their choices prior to that.
Which means, that since they are prophesying, there is hope some will listen and therefore, for those others, their judgment has not happened. Each will make a conscience and explicit choice.
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: kland]
#134695
06/24/11 10:18 PM
06/24/11 10:18 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
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Yes, Rev 11 talking about measuring seems to be taking an accounting of things. And while that has been done throughout history, and can end at any time for any individual, the chapter is between the 6th and 7th angels sounding.
It also talks about 42 months which translates to 1260 days. Matching the end time in Daniel 12.
The question becomes, does the judgment end when the 1260 days start, or sometime within it? If not before, probably very shortly after it begins as the beast from the pit will make war against them. They will have made their choices prior to that.
Which means, that since they are prophesying, there is hope some will listen and therefore, for those others, their judgment has not happened. Each will make a conscience and explicit choice. Revelation 11:1 seems to be talking both about corporate and individual judgment. This dovetails with some other lines of evidence in the Bible. The principles seem to be (a) a church can be judged independently from its members, and (b) people are judged based on the light they've had. If we look at passages like Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 23:38, and Acts 13:46, it seems clear that Israel closed its corporate probation with God at the time of the cross and the stoning of Stephen. It was judged as a corporate entity. This did not preclude individual Jews from later conversion to Christianity, with Paul as a notable example. With reference to people being judged based on the light they've had, some verses that make this point include Ezekiel 9:6 and 1 Peter 4:17. How do we apply these principles to the end time? Based on what I've seen in EGW, it appears that the SDA Church is judged before the world. I am thinking of quotes like these: Oh, that the people might know the time of their visitation! There are many who have not yet heard the testing truth for this time. There are many with whom the Spirit of God is striving. The time of God's destructive judgments is the time of mercy for those who have had no opportunity to learn what is truth. Tenderly will the Lord look upon them. His heart of mercy is touched; His hand is still stretched out to save, while the door is closed to those who would not enter. {9T 97.2} But I speak not my own words when I say that God's Spirit will pass by those who have had their day of test and opportunity, but who have not distinguished the voice of God or appreciated the movings of His Spirit. Then thousands in the eleventh hour will see and acknowledge the truth. {2SM 16.1} It appears that the church is judged fairly early in the process, and goes through the shaking time. The net result of this process is a group of fully-committed people who can go out and give the loud cry in the power of the latter rain. Another aspect of this is what EGW calls the "closing work for the church" (3T 266), which apparently occurs before the loud cry. The point of all this is that the church and its members need to be on track with God themselves if they're going to proclaim the final warning to the world.
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: glenm]
#134710
06/25/11 12:23 PM
06/25/11 12:23 PM
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. . .Based on what I've seen in EGW, it appears that the SDA Church is judged before the world. I am thinking of quotes like these. . .
The point of all this is that the church and its members need to be on track with God themselves if they're going to proclaim the final warning to the world. There are many more passages in scripture and the SOP that warn the church that it is judged first. For a long time I believed that revival and reformation among Adventists had to come first before the little time of trouble. I see now that that was a dangerous viewpoint and not consistent with prophecy. Historically, persecution has been the means of the revival and purification of the church. Prophetically we're told that the end time church will overcome him, the devil by "the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Rev 12:11,12. The church is purified and revived during troubled times. A "short time" is much less than 1260 years. The primary application of this warning is to the end-time church. It's telling us that at the end God's people will overcome when they have rock solid faith that doesn't flinch in the face of death.
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Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#134716
06/25/11 05:32 PM
06/25/11 05:32 PM
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The church is purified and revived during troubled times.... The primary application of this warning is to the end-time church. It's telling us that at the end God's people will overcome when they have rock solid faith that doesn't flinch in the face of death. When you actually understand what is Biblically, Spiritually “ fully” involved in the (present day Eschatological) Mark of the Beast, you can easily and tangibly see that SDA will by the vast majority fail this “time of trouble” development (cf. EW 85.2) because they here prefer to trample upon the Sabbatical principles of God in order to “make a living/profit” within their espoused snaringly unbiblical and evil Capitalistic system, for of course, in the present state of world affairs, if one does not go along with the system, then they are automatically bound to suffer economic hardship even unto permitted death. So I clearly do not see this Church and its collective membership taken the due stand for God and His truth in this pivotal end time issue. Indeed borne out of various forms and degrees of covetousness, pointedly in Western Countries, they have fully fallen for this special and targeted ensnaring deception. EW 266.1-268.2. You all, as usual/ type-ical, can, even childishly (=Pharisaically (Acts 7:57 = 7:51; Matt 13:9, 15 = Zec 7:8-14; Jer 5:20-31)), summarily/defaultly wholly ignore this key issue, not even, tellingly enough, being able to Biblically refute it, but that does not make it go away or become a non-(Present)-truth. As EGW says (cf. this post (#134670)): The great obstacle both to the acceptance and to the promulgation of truth is the fact that it involves inconvenience and reproach. This is the only argument against the truth which its advocates have never been able to refute. But this does not deter the true followers of Christ. These do not wait for truth to become popular. Being convinced of their duty, they deliberately accept the cross, with the apostle Paul counting that "our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;" with one of old, [Moses] "esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt." 2 Corinthians 4:17; Hebrews 11:26.
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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