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Destruction of the wicked
#13488
05/05/05 04:50 AM
05/05/05 04:50 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Rosangela posted the following on another thread (where we've been going back and forth on God's wrath) quote:
God’s glory and a literal lake of fire are not incompatible. God’s glory sets the earth on fire and at the same time acts (as His wrath) on the interior of the sinner.
This seems reasonable to me. I'm interested in other's thoughts on it.
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13489
05/05/05 11:00 AM
05/05/05 11:00 AM
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Dear Brother Tom,
Greetings. According to scriptures our God is a consuming fire. Therefore I would say that literal fire would be in the lake of fire. Remember light and darkness cannot dwell together, and if God is like the consuming fire, then what is darkness must be consumed.
Below are some verses to consider:
quote:
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Dueteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Some quotes from the writings of Mrs. White:
quote:
"I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance," said John; "but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Matt. 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities "by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." The word of the Lord to Israel was, "I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isa. 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. The Desire of Ages, pp. 107:4-108:1.
Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire.
Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch (Mal. 4:1)--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. . . . "They shall be as though they had not been." Obadiah 16. Faith I Live By, pp. 357.3-357.4.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13490
05/06/05 03:13 AM
05/06/05 03:13 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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And, of course, who can forget this quote:
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13491
05/05/05 09:33 PM
05/05/05 09:33 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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There's this one, where she explains the meaning of her vision: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
Rosangela and I have been going back and forth, and she formulated a statement which I was wondering if both sides of the question could agree with. Her statement says that God's glory destroys the wicked (a point I've been emphasizing) and results in a literal lake of fire when the earth is purified. This seems plausible to me. I would add that the same thing which causes the death of the wicked gives life to the righteous, which is an important point (this is from the DA 108 quote.)
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13492
05/06/05 09:47 AM
05/06/05 09:47 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Picture this:
"Bob was told by his boss at the local Garden and Nursery shop to fetch a box of seeds from the old metal shed out in back of the store. Bob knew that no one had gone into that shed for years, and it looked a sore sight from the outside, all weathered and blistered. But when he got the jammed door open finally, he had to hold his nose: the inside was full of slime mold and wierd mushrooms that had festered in the dark dampness.
'Sorry boss; that old shed is overun with mold and fungus. It's covered everything and I'm afraid those flower seeds are ruined.'
After a little thought, the boss took Bob back to the shed and instructed him to tear off the roof, just the roof. Bob, puzzled, got to it, but thought his boss was insane.
After 3 weeks of warm spring sunshine and showers, Bob's boss took him back to the shed, and pried open the door. Lo and behold, the shed was packed to the roof with millions of bright and colorful flowers. The mushrooms and mold had all withered and vanished and the boxes had turned to mulch, a perfect starter bed for the store's new crop of potted flowers!"
That's how God's glory kills and yet gives life.
To the mushrooms, the open sky was a "lake of fire".
To the flower seeds, it was "the glory of His face."
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13493
05/07/05 05:16 AM
05/07/05 05:16 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Did you do that Ikan? (very cool)
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13494
05/07/05 02:21 PM
05/07/05 02:21 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Well, yes..It just sorta came to me, Tom as I was mulling over the problems of the Bible and SOP's "apparent" contradictions.
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13495
05/15/05 09:05 PM
05/15/05 09:05 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I moved from the thread "Behold the Lamb" to this thread because John B. is correct in suggesting that this thread is more appropriate to the discussion we are having. quote:
Tom: No, [the duration of the punishment is] decided now. It's determined by the light rejected. It's not an arbitrary determination on the part of God, as if the rejection of light had nothing to do with the suffering the wicked will endure in the end, but it's that very rejection which determines the suffering.
Lesser or greater rejection of light determines a shorter or longer sentence. But God, together with the saved, determines the length of the sentence, that is, the exact amount of time the punishment will last (EW 290, 291). quote:
Tom: The principle of corporate forensice justification is that God treats all people as if they had never sinned. By the gift of Christ, God's grace is communicated to all. All live physically by virture of God's grace manifest in Christ.
I can’t find this view of corporate forensic justification either in the Bible or in the SOP. Justification, both in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White, is only and solely by faith.
Through Christ the human race was granted a second probation:
"After the fall Christ became Adam's instructor. He acted in God's stead toward humanity, saving the race from immediate death. He took upon him the office of mediator. Adam and Eve were given a probation in which to return to their allegiance, and in this plan all their posterity were embraced." {CC 20.6}
But a second probation and justification are two different things. A second probation has to do with the present life, while justification has to do with eternal life. Justification is our title to heaven.
What happened when man sinned?
"By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God's dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God's kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him. {FW 21.1}
"This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man's surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial--a second probation--having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God's law as they did. ...{FW 21.2}
"Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ." {FW 22.1}
Why is death the penalty of sin? Because by sinning man forfeited life.
Is it an imposed penalty? Yes, because God made obedience the condition of eternal life. Those who are not obedient cannot inherit it.
Man was not annihilated at the moment he sinned because Christ proposed to take the penalty of sin upon Himself. But those who do not accept Christ will finally have their life removed because they forfeited it by their transgressions:
“Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. {GC 544}
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13496
05/16/05 05:18 AM
05/16/05 05:18 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom: No, [the duration of the punishment is] decided now. It's determined by the light rejected. It's not an arbitrary determination on the part of God, as if the rejection of light had nothing to do with the suffering the wicked will endure in the end, but it's that very rejection which determines the suffering. R: Lesser or greater rejection of light determines a shorter or longer sentence. But God, together with the saved, determines the length of the sentence, that is, the exact amount of time the punishment will last (EW 290, 291). Tom: It's the wicked who determine the length of their sentence. As the Spirit of Prophesy points out repeatedly, God destroys no man, but they destroy themselves by rejecting His grace. God simply recognizes their choice. As the GC quote points out, the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. Old Tom: The principle of corporate forensice justification is that God treats all people as if they had never sinned. By the gift of Christ, God's grace is communicated to all. All live physically by virture of God's grace manifest in Christ. R: I can’t find this view of corporate forensic justification either in the Bible or in the SOP. Justification, both in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White, is only and solely by faith. Tom: It's in many places of both. I quoted on from the Desire of Ages. Here's another from 1SM 343 quote:
He arose from the tomb enshrouded with a cloud of angels in wondrous power and glory--the Deity and humanity combined. He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.
The restoration of the whole race of men to favor with God is what corporate justification is about. A good description of it is found in FW 21, 22.
In Scripture the following texts discuss it: Rom. 5:18; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19; 1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10; Titus 2:11; Isa. 44:22. Those are just a few that jump to my mind.
R: Through Christ the human race was granted a second probation:
"After the fall Christ became Adam's instructor. He acted in God's stead toward humanity, saving the race from immediate death. He took upon him the office of mediator. Adam and Eve were given a probation in which to return to their allegiance, and in this plan all their posterity were embraced." {CC 20.6}
But a second probation and justification are two different things. A second probation has to do with the present life, while justification has to do with eternal life. Justification is our title to heaven.
Tom: Being restored to favor with God is what the corporate justification is about. Note that this was accomplished for the "whole race of men." This is not justification by faith, which, of course, only happens for those who believe.
It took me quite awhile to get it. Be patient with it. It's not universalism, and it's not justification by faith. It's saying that God did something for every person; He legally justified them, or restored them to favor with Himself by virtue of the gift of Christ. Thus every person is infinitely indebted to Christ for their existence, not just on the basis of creation, but on the basis of redemption. As the DA quote says, "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life."
BTW the Spirit of Prophesy got these ideas from the teachings of Jones and Waggoner on righteousness by faith.
R: What happened when man sinned?
"By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God's dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God's kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him. {FW 21.1}
"This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man's surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial--a second probation--having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God's law as they did. ...{FW 21.2}
"Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ." {FW 22.1}
Tom:This is the reference I mentioned earlier. You're telephathic.
R: Why is death the penalty of sin? Because by sinning man forfeited life.
Is it an imposed penalty?
Tom: No, not imposed, or arbitrary, which is probably a better word.
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
R: Yes, because God made obedience the condition of eternal life. Those who are not obedient cannot inherit it.
Tom: This isn't imposed or arbitrary either. To know God *is* eternal life (John 17:3). To be spiritually minded, is life and peace (Romans 8:6)
This would be an excellent topic for a post. I hope to do this tomorrow. Neither eternal life nor death is "imposed" or arbitrary. Both are the inevitable consequences of the choices made. This is an important concept to grasp. Not getting this will lead one to misapprehend God's character.
R: Man was not annihilated at the moment he sinned because Christ proposed to take the penalty of sin upon Himself. But those who do not accept Christ will finally have their life removed because they forfeited it by their transgressions:
“Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. {GC 544}
Tom: Yes, but even the ability to make that choice was purchased for them by Christ. So God paid an infinite price to preserve the freedom of choice for those who reject Him! This is how important freedom is to God. He would rather die than to allow His children to be without it. This is why it is wrong to understand that God is imposing His will upon either those who accept Him or reject Him. This is the enemy's way -- not God's. God rewards both those who accept Him and reject Him with the results of their choices. That is, each is allowed to exercise their freedom as they choose.
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Re: Destruction of the wicked
#13497
05/16/05 02:13 PM
05/16/05 02:13 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
1- Sin is rebellion against God’s law, and ultimately rebellion against God Himself. It’s rebellion against everything that God is: love, goodness, truth, justice. It is God who determines the punishment for sin on the basis of how offensive sin is to Him, and this is not arbitrary. It will be the intensity of the sufferings of Christ that will determine the intensity and duration of the punishment of the wicked.
The Son of God could fully understand the aggravating sins of the transgressor, and in His sinless character He alone could make an acceptable atonement for man in suffering the agonizing sense of His Father's displeasure. The sorrow and anguish of the Son of God for the sins of the world were proportionate to His divine excellence and purity, as well as to the magnitude of the offense. {Con 50.1}
His [Christ’s] suffering was proportionate to the perfection of His holiness and His hatred of sin. {ST, January 17, 1900}
The penalty for breaking the law of God is proportionate to the price paid to redeem its transgressors. {FLB 354}
Therefore, the intensity and duration of the anguish to be felt by the sinner has to be proportionate to the anguish Christ experienced because of His hatred of sin.
2- The exclusion from heaven is voluntary on the part of the wicked in the sense that they choose not to comply with the conditions; but it is imposed by God in the sense that God established that those who do not comply with His conditions cannot inherit His kingdom, which means that He has no other option but to remove their lives.
3- As the first Adam brought the condemnation of God upon all men, the second Adam brought the favor of God (His grace) upon all men (Rom. 5). The difference is that all men are by default the posterity of Adam, but only those who accpet Christ by faith are His posterity. God has placed every individual of our race under divine favor in the sense that all are offered His favor, not in the sense that all enjoy His favor. Those who accept Christ are under God’s favor, but sinners are under God’s condemnation, not His favor:
The soul that believes in Christ may be cleansed from all defilement, and, through the grace of Christ, may be restored to divine favor. {ST, September 23, 1889}
Man is unworthy of any favor from God; but as Christ becomes his righteousness, he may ask and receive, in his name and through his merit, the grace and favor of God.{ST, November 10, 1890}
Christ clothed His divinity with humanity, and by His death made it possible for man to be restored to the favor that Adam lost. {5MR 250}
The Creator loves His creatures, but he who loves sin more than righteousness, error more than truth, perpetuates the transgression that brought woe into our world, and cannot be regarded with favor by the God of truth. ... As we behold Christ, pierced for our sins, we shall see that we cannot break the law of God and remain in His favor; we shall feel that as sinners we must lay hold of the merits of Christ and cease to sin. {1SM 311, 312}
But let no one flatter himself that he may transgress the commandments, and yet receive the favor of God. In the government of God, justice and grace stand side by side. The law cannot be transgressed with impunity. {ST, October 10, 1892 par. 2}
Our money means souls, and it is to be used to bring a knowledge of the truth to those who, because of sin, are under the condemnation of God. {7T 91.3}
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