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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rosangela] #135667
08/12/11 06:04 PM
08/12/11 06:04 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mike, what I'm saying is that the "condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" is that of abiding in Jesus 100% of the time. Those who don't abide in Jesus 100% of the time haven't yet reached this condition of sinlessness.


Yes, this is a very important point, "abiding in Jesus". Many people quote 1 John 3:4 "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

It is interesting to notice that in the rest of the chapter, if not in the rest of the epistle, the Apostle John defines the law as dealing with relationship, both with Christ and with other people. That is what "living in him" means.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Johann] #135670
08/13/11 05:32 PM
08/13/11 05:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Amen. Would you also say it means living in perfect harmony with the law? Or, do you suspect it includes sinning and repenting as normal?

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #135676
08/14/11 01:00 PM
08/14/11 01:00 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Amen. Would you also say it means living in perfect harmony with the law? Or, do you suspect it includes sinning and repenting as normal?


Answers to your questions depend on how you define "living in perfect harmony with the law." For now let me say that my answer to both questions would be "no"!

Scripture teaches that you are a sinner, and no matter how much you live in perfect harmony with the law is going to change that. Even five thousand years beyond the millennium will not change that. You are only counted sinless and as if you had never sinned and your sins are buried in the depths of the sea as long as your sin is hid in Jesus Christ. Because you have sinned you are just as much in need of Jesus Christ throughout eternity as when you first repented. I'm afraid anyone who figures he can manage without Jesus Christ after a certain time now or in the future will be in grave danger and is unfit for a place in the kingdom.

Yes, "Sinless Perfections" is a must, but is never achieved in and by yourself. It is a 100% devotion to Jesus Christ and a sealing by the Holy Spirit.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Johann] #135678
08/15/11 04:33 AM
08/15/11 04:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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When our sins and second death perish with Satan in the lake of fire is it theoretically possible we could be guilty of them again in the future?

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #135679
08/15/11 04:35 AM
08/15/11 04:35 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Also, is it possible to literally live sinlessly in this lifetime like A&E did in Eden?

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #135680
08/15/11 09:48 AM
08/15/11 09:48 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
When our sins and second death perish with Satan in the lake of fire is it theoretically possible we could be guilty of them again in the future?


We will still be there and will not perish. . . It is remarkable how good a job of restoration can be done by a master, and even more so by our perfect and Almighty Creator, but even He will keep the marks of His sufferings as a reminder all through eternity. Don't you think that reminder will keep you conscious of the sin which caused His suffering and fill you with gratitude that you are there - all because of Him?

If I should get the idea - God forbid - that I've made it because now I can live a perfect life without so much dependence on Him, wouldn't that diminish my sense of gratitude and devotion?

Yes, I think there is the theoretical possibility that I might turn into a varnished Pharisee. On the other hand if that is still in me at the Second Coming I'd be rather uncomfortable being taken to a place where I couldn't waggle my tail comforting myself I made it because of my excellent grades in the school below, expecting even higher grades and admiration by those who have seen how I managed to gain victories through my encounters on Earth and how well my voice tunes into the Heavenly Choir. They should take due consideration to my abilities and ask me to sing some solo parts for all to take notice, shouldn't they.

Am I making it too obvious?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #135681
08/15/11 10:08 AM
08/15/11 10:08 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Also, is it possible to literally live sinlessly in this lifetime like A&E did in Eden?


I think the more I consider the possibility of living a sinless life, achieving it becomes more difficult because it would make me focus more on myself than on Jesus Christ - Who is my only hope.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Johann] #135683
08/16/11 02:15 AM
08/16/11 02:15 AM
Johann  Offline
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I have been pondering why Ellen White makes a point of it that the saints who go through the last tribulation have to pass through the nightmare of wondering if there should still be some unconfessed sin they are not aware of?

"Another doctrine that will be presented is that all that we have to do is to believe in Christ—to believe that He has forgiven our sins, and that after we are 596forgiven, it is impossible for us to sin. This is a snare of Satan. It is true that we must believe in Christ. He is our only hope of salvation. But it is also true that we must work out our individual salvation daily in faith, not boastingly but with fear and trembling. We are to use every power of our being in His service, and after we have done our utmost, we are still to regard ourselves as unprofitable servants. Divine power will unite with our efforts, and as we cling to God with the hand of faith, Christ will impart to us His wisdom and His righteousness. Thus, by His grace, we shall be enabled to build upon the sure foundation."—Manuscript 27, 1886. {Ev 595.3}

"We may commit the keeping of our souls to God as unto a faithful Creator, not because we are sinless, but because Jesus died to save just such erring, faulty creatures as we are. We may rest upon God, not because of our own merit, but because the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. We must look away from self to the spotless Lamb of God, who did no sin; and by looking to him in faith we shall become like him." {GW92 427.3}


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Johann] #135684
08/16/11 02:58 PM
08/16/11 02:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning?

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #135686
08/16/11 09:48 PM
08/16/11 09:48 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning?


Yes, but what claims should one make on the basis of this answer?

Quote:
1 John 1:8-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.



1 John 3:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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