And Paul replies:

There are those who dismiss Paul, and those who dismiss James. Those people do not hang out here.

For those who accept that these Scriptures do not contradict each other, there are usually two options available:

• They were using "faith" differently. James used "faith" in a narrower sense, while Paul used it in a broader sense. Either way, true faith comes with good works.
• They were using "works" differently. Paul referred to "works" which one did in order to be saved, while James referred to "works" which one did because he was saved.

Of course, there are nuances and variations in the beliefs of individuals, but those are the major categories. Either "faith" was different or "works" was different.

However, I prefer a 3rd option: They were using "justified" (dikaio) differently. James used it in the sense of "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous," while Paul used it in the sense of "to declare, pronounce, one to be just" or even "to render righteous."

James used Abraham as an example of faith that exhibited good works. He was "justified" by his works because his works showed that he was righteous.

In contrast, Paul used Abraham as an example of one who was justified without works. He was "counted" righteous not because he worked, but because he believed.

Furthermore, the Jews did not attain righteousness because they sought it by works. Had they believed in Jesus, instead of being a stumblingblock to them, He would have rendered, or made, them righteous. But God only does that for those who trust in Him, not in themselves.

So, is faith ever alone? As the means for justification - to be declared just or to be made just - it MUST be alone. But as the evidence of justification - to show that one is just - it cannot be alone, since man looks at the outward appearance.

Yes, I tend to agree with your third option.

Have you ever tried to find a text where Paul says
"The Just shall live by faith ALONE?

It's not in the text that uses the first six words.

1Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It isn't anywhere.

Hebrews says:

11:7 By faith Noah,... moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

11:8 By faith Abraham, ...obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

So -- I think both Paul and James agree that the just live by faith in obedience.

Where the difference comes is when "justification" means forgiveness. Forgiveness that legally says we are accounted as if we had not sinned. That comes by faith ALONE in Christ and His supreme sacrifice. Nothing we do can give us that.

Perhaps a better "translation" is: The just shall live by faithfulness.


I might even go so far as to say that justification in the sense of being rendered or made just also comes by faith alone, no works. The works is the result of the process, not the impetus. But I'm still studying this out, so nothing dogmatic at this point.

Thank you, Arnold, for creating this week's study and discussion thread.

Very good thoughts expressed here in these posts, all of which I am presently in agreement.

As I am the one presenting the lesson study in our church tomorrow morning, I am thinking about printing off and using some of what was posted here so far.

Paul is talking to Peter who had fallen back into segregation practices.

"Peter, you are a Jew and follower of the Torah, and have never practiced sins common to Gentiles, but let me ask you this-- do you still need to be Justified by Christ?"

Peter looks down, remembering his plunders and outright denials of His Lord, yes, he NEEDS the justification that only Christ can give.

Paul continues: "So you KNOW that you were justified by Jesus Christ not the works of the law. You would be condemned even though you have lived by the Torah all your life. By the works of the law no one can be justified."


And yes -- Peter would also realize the absolute necessity of a living faith that alone enables him to live a life of obedience. So yes, being made righteous, as in sanctification, comes also only by faith in Jesus Christ. Self sufficiency in right doing doesn't lead to any kind of justification.
"The works is the result of the process, not the impetus."

We know that our justification rests on substitution: Jesus obeyed the law perfectly, and His obedience stands in the place of our disobedience. If so, then we can say, "We are justified by the faithfulness of Jesus." God declares us just because Jesus was perfect, and His perfection is accounted to us.

But does this also work for justification in the sense of "to make righteous"? Is it correct to say that when we are being made righteous - sanctified - that it is Jesus working through us? Hence, even our sanctification is Christ's perfect obedience, not our own. Does that sound right?

It seems to me it is Jesus working in us. The obedience is ours, but it is motivated by the Holy Spirit; however, although motivated by Him, it is an imperfect obedience, so it must be covered by Christ's righteousness.

When through repentance and faith we accept Christ as our Saviour, the Lord pardons our sins, and remits the penalty prescribed for the transgression of the law. The sinner then stands before God as a just person; he is taken into favor with Heaven, and through the Spirit has fellowship with the Father and the Son. Then there is yet another work to be accomplished, and this is of a progressive nature. The soul is to be sanctified through the truth. And this also is accomplished through faith. For it is only by the grace of Christ, which we receive through faith, that the character can be transformed. {3SM 191.2, 3}

O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. {AG 154.5}

IOW, Christ's righteousness covers both our sins (justification) and our good works (sanctification), therefore both justification and sanctification are accomplished through faith.

You and I have been proponents of these ideas here for a long time. I agree with what you said here.

But I have been contemplating Bill Liversidge's ideas. He says that even "our" obedience is really Jesus obeying through us. This seems to be closely related to the idea that even our sanctified obedience needs to be covered by Christ's perfect, meritorious obedience. I'm still trying to work out the details.

In sanctification I would say Jesus is working IN US, there is an element of co-operation that needs to exist, for Jesus does not force Himself upon us.
Yet that co-operation is more of submission a placing our will under His will, and being in daily surrendered communication with Christ.

But yes, I agree it's Christ's perfect righteousness not our own.


Truth lies on a rather fine line.

I see people opposing these Sabbath School lessons stressing the law, the law, saying yes Jesus forgives, but the law, the law is what's important and these lessons down play the law.
They resist justification by faith alone with the same zeal as the 1888 brethren opposed Jones and Waggonner.

On the other hand I see people so into the "Jesus did it all" that they will tell me things like: "When Jesus takes away my desire to smoke I will know it's His work not my own, and I will stop smoking". And they continue to smoke (or whatever other sin they want to keep) while happily saying they are "saved".

Think of it this way through the eyes of the sanctuary.

In the outer court stands the altar and laver.
These stand for justification.
Jesus paid our penalty, we are baptized into His death and rise in newness of life in Him.

The holy place stands for sanctification.

The altar of incense represents our prayers but they must be raised with the sweet incense of Christ's merits to be accaptable to God.

"Christ your Mediator stands before the Father to present your prayers as fragrant incense, mingled with his own merit and spotless righteousness."CT 241

The candlestick represents Christ who is the light of the World. We are to be lights in the world as well, but we, when we shine for God are reflectors of the light of Christ Who is the Light!

So yes, our obedience is covered by the merits of Christ to make it pleasing to God.

I've never seen EGW express things in these terms. How could Jesus obey with an imperfect obedience? Passages like the following ones may be useful:

In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God. {DA 466.4}

The mind must yield obedience to the royal law of liberty, the law which the Spirit of God impresses upon the heart, and makes plain to the understanding. The expulsion of sin must be the act of the soul itself, in calling into exercise its noblest powers. The only freedom a finite will can enjoy, consists in coming into harmony with the will of God, complying with the conditions that make man a partaker of the divine nature. {OHC 138.4}

I will keep thinking about the last few posts.

But I want to clarify something. I'm not saying, and neither is Liversidge, that Jesus' obedience was imperfect. But they are tainted by passing through our corrupt channels of humanity.

All interesting, but can we be justified by faith alone if we still continue in sin?

Jesus told a parable

It was about a man who somehow got himself into impossible debt. A debt that he could in no wise repay.

When call by the master to give an account he pleaded to be given more time he would repay all. The master realizing it was impossible totally and completely forgave him his debt.

The man was FREE! No more debt.

But then, instead of living a life of gratitude and goodness, he mets a fellow servant that owed him a small amount.
The fellow servant pleaded to be given more time he would repay all. But the man who was forgiven all would not forgive the little amount, but had his fellow servant put in prison.

When the master heard the news, he called the man back and placed the full debt back upon his account. The man was no longer free, he could not pay and suffered the punishment.

So it is with Justification by Faith

The Lord is willing and eager to declare us Justified and pardon the sins we confess.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are FREE! Freed from sin!
But now what?
Being freed from sin do we go back and continue in sin?
God forbid.

Scripture says:
Ez. 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

After accepting Christ and accepting His Justifiction -- the JUST (those justified) are to live by faith.
The faith that believes God knows what is best and humbly follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.

This thought of Christ's obedience through us still doesn't sound right to me, although I've never read anything penned by Bill Liversidge. What about Adam before the fall? Would his obedience also have been Christ's obedience through him? Or would this apply only to the sinner?

More passages possibly related to the subject:

When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. {FW 50.1}

Jesus bears tenderly with them [James and John], not rebuking their selfishness in seeking preference above their brethren. He reads their hearts, He knows the depth of their attachment to Him. Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love. He will not rebuke, but deepen and purify. {DA 548.6} [Obedience is prompted by this love]

Here's a link to his book: Overcoming Through JESUS

After spending some paragraphs on Rom 5:18-19, he says this on page 75-76:

How can we who died to sin live any longer in it? God forbid!

As dedication said, the faith that justifies is the kind that trusts the God knows what is best, and follows His leading. Why would someone do something that he knows God forbids? Because he thinks he has a better plan than God. That is not faith. Such a person is not justified.

The question is, What does he mean by that? Is he speaking literally or figuratively?

When Paul says, for instance, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," he is speaking figuratively, for he immediately adds, "and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God." Christ does not live literally in us; we live in union with Christ and assimilate His love.

What I believe about obedience is summarized in the well-known quote:

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will take hold of the Strong for strength. {DA 668.3,4}

Is this what he means?

I don't think that's what he meant in the quote, though I don't think he would disagree with DA 668.3,4.

What I get from the book is a very strong emphasis on accepting God's gift to us. I think what he's saying is that our righteousness is completely founded on Christ's obedience, not our own. The obedience that God accepts, which justifies us, is Christ's obedience.

That's why this lesson brought it to mind.

But beyond that, I think he also teaches that even our sanctification, the obedience that pleases God, is Christ's obedience that He does through us. We are merely the conduit for Christ's good works. I don't find that too disturbing.

The idea that righteousness, which is a result of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature, is somehow less righteous than the righteousness Jesus rendered while here in the flesh is unbiblical.


While they are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature they are as pure and righteous as Jesus was.

But only because His blood and merits are applied to their obedience. Without Christ's blood and merits, their obedience is not acceptable to God. Do you agree?

I agree.


It's true that all we do is by the grace of God and that "Without me ye can do nothing." But saying we are merely the conduit makes obedience completely impersonal. There is a personal aspect in obedience. Human effort must be combined with divine power. Ellen White speaks about this over and over again. It seems to me this emphasis is lacking in Liversidge's view.

Paul holds up the standard of perfection and shows how it may be reached. "Work out your own salvation," he says, "for it is God which worketh in you." The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation. There is to be co-operation between God and the repentant sinner. This is necessary for the formation of right principles in the character. Man is to make earnest efforts to overcome that which hinders him from attaining to perfection. But he is wholly dependent upon God for success. Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works. Resistance of temptation must come from man, who must draw his power from God. {AA 482.2}

The moment the sinner believes in Christ, he stands in the sight of God uncondemned; for the righteousness of Christ is his: Christ's perfect obedience is imputed to him. But he must co-operate with divine power, and put forth his human effort to subdue sin, and stand complete in Christ. {FE 429.3}

He saw that man had become so weakened by disobedience that he had not wisdom or strength to meet the wily foe, and this is why the Son of God takes upon himself man's nature, and, gaining the victory in our behalf, brings to us divine power, that, combined with human effort, will enable us to overcome. There is, then, no ground for men to take glory to themselves. For every blessing which they enjoy, for every good quality which they possess, they are indebted to the grace of Christ. ... As one becomes acquainted with the history of the Redeemer, he discovers in himself serious defects; his unlikeness to Christ is so great that he sees the necessity for radical changes in his life. Still he studies with a desire to become like his great Exemplar. He catches the looks, the spirit, of his beloved Master. By beholding, by "looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," he becomes changed into the same image. It is not by looking away from him that we imitate the life of Jesus, but by talking of him, by dwelling upon his perfections, by seeking to refine the taste and elevate the character, by trying, through faith and love, and by earnest, persevering effort, to approach the perfect Pattern. By having a knowledge of Christ,--his words, his habits, and his lessons of instruction,--we borrow the virtues of the character we have so closely studied, and become imbued with the spirit we have so much admired. Jesus becomes to us "the chiefest among ten thousand," the One "altogether lovely". {RH, March 15, 1887 par. 10-12}

No, I don't agree. I believe Jesus' blood and righteousness covers our pardoned sins. His blood is not needed to cover the obedience and righteousness we experience as a result of abiding in Him and partaking of the divine nature. The passage I posted above say so.

We are accepted through Christ's merit alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. {AG 331.3}


There are many... who compare themselves to Christ, as though they were equal with him in perfection of character. This is blasphemy. Could they obtain a view of Christ's righteousness, they would have a sense of their own sinfulness and imperfection. There is not a case recorded in the Bible, of prophet or apostle claiming, as do the "holiness" people of today, to be without sin. Daniel humbled himself before God, to confess his sins and the sins of his people. Paul had a very humble opinion of his own advancement in the Christian life. He says, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: . . . but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." And John declares, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." {RH, March 15, 1887 par. 11}

Some quotes which seem to say the opposite of what you are saying.

"Conduit" was my language. But perhaps that's the part that's not feeling completely right. Perhaps he does not emphasize the struggling and striving required in our participation. I'll have to think about that more.

In light of R's quotes, do you believe that this side of eternity, we can be as righteous and pure and holy and perfect as Jesus was?

The quotes dealing with the holiness movement discuss an entirely different issue. It is true, though, we can never "equal the pattern", however, we can and must, by the grace of God, imitate the character Jesus. It is blasphemous, as you know, to say otherwise. And, the fact the righteous results of abiding in Jesus have no "merit" is obvious. But to say it also means such results, such fruitage is sinful and, therefore, requires the covering blood and righteousness of Jesus to make it acceptable to God is unbiblical. Again, the righteous results of abiding in Jesus are pure and pleasing to God because they are sinless and made fragrant by the merits of Jesus.

Mike,

You are contradicting yourself. What is sinless doesn't need to be made fragrant by the merits of Jesus. Had there been no sin, there would have been no need for Christ's merit.

How can the works of sinful beings be sinless?

Yes, we imitate Jesus, but never equal the Pattern.

Can the requirements of God's Law be fulfilled by anything less than Christ's perfect Pattern? He obeyed God completely, all the time. Will the law be satisfied by anything less than complete, constant obedience?

When born-again believers abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature they, like Jesus, are empowered by the Holy Spirit to "work the works of God". Their fruit is "perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." To say they are "sinful beings" rather than "saints" seems inarticulate.

Yes, law and justice is perfectly satisfied with the fruit of born-again believers who are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. "Holiness finds that it has nothing more to require." {COL 162.4} It doesn't matter that "all have sinned" or that "there is none righteous" because the blood and righteousness of Jesus atones for past sins. "Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." {SC 62.2}

Then salvation is by faith + works - faith at justification and works for sanctification?
Besides, what you are saying is that after justification you can equal the Pattern, since your works are perfect.

A couple of passages which deal with this:

Many feel that their faults of character make it impossible for them to meet the standard that Christ has erected, but all that such ones have to do is to humble themselves at every step under the mighty hand of God. Christ does not estimate the man by the amount of work he does, but by the spirit in which the work is performed. When He sees men lifting the burdens, trying to carry them in lowliness of mind, with distrust of self and with reliance upon Him, He adds to their work His perfection and sufficiency, and it is accepted of the Father. We are accepted in the Beloved. The sinner's defects are covered by the perfection and fullness of the Lord our Righteousness. Those who with sincere will, with contrite heart, are putting forth humble efforts to live up to the requirements of God, are looked upon by the Father with pitying, tender love; He regards such as obedient children, and the righteousness of Christ is imputed unto them. {HP 23.4, 5}

Before the believer is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ, obedient to all the principles of the law. But of himself man is utterly unable to reach this condition. The holiness that God's word declares he must have before he can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. Man's obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ's righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sin-sick soul. He has not the wisdom or the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and He bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek Him for help. {AA 532.1}

Rosangela, I agree with the quotes you posted. Please note she never refers to the righteousness of saints as sinful. The fact Jesus sweetens it with His fragrance is not the same thing as saying it is sinful. The difference has to do with maturation - not sinfulness.


"If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law." You seem to be saying, No, they will not be in harmony.

"He adds to their work His perfection and sufficiency"
"The sinner's defects are covered by the perfection and fullness of the Lord our Righteousness"
"our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God"

Yes, in harmony, but apparently, still needing Christ's imputed righteousness, still falling short.

I am not disputing the necessity of Jesus' fragrance. However, please note "falls so far short" (from the quote you posted) isn't the same as saying their Spirit-powered obedience and righteousness is sinful. Paul wrote, "For the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." 1 Cor 3:17. And Peter wrote, "As he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15-16.

Isn't falling short of meeting the requirements of God's law the very definition of sin?

I don't see how her statement ("falls so far short") can mean they fall short in the sense their Spirit-powered righteousness is a sin. Must born-again believers repent of the righteousness they experience while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature?

She's pretty clear that these people are seeking for holiness and delight in God's law. Yet, they fall short. There's really not a lot of wiggle room there.

Is repentance needed? Well, do we need to repent for falling short of meeting the law's requirements? Yes.

We're talking about two different things, aren't we? I'm referring to the righteous results of abiding in Jesus and you're referring to the unrighteous results of failing to abide in Jesus. Or, are you referring to sins of ignorance people commit while abiding in Jesus?

I'm talking about our righteousnesses, which are wrought in us as we abide in Jesus. They are filthy rags. We are prompted and empowered by the Spirit to do God's works, but they are tainted by sin when they pass through our corrupt channels of humanity. Even though they are done in faith, they can never be of value to God unless purified by Christ's blood and merits, covering our unavoidable deficiencies.

I posted your comment in the Old Testament Faith thread. No need discussing the same thing in two different places.