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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: asygo] #137008
10/23/11 01:19 AM
10/23/11 01:19 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: asygo
I have been contemplating Bill Liversidge's ideas. He says that even "our" obedience is really Jesus obeying through us. This seems to be closely related to the idea that even our sanctified obedience needs to be covered by Christ's perfect, meritorious obedience. I'm still trying to work out the details.


Think of it this way through the eyes of the sanctuary.

In the outer court stands the altar and laver.
These stand for justification.
Jesus paid our penalty, we are baptized into His death and rise in newness of life in Him.

The holy place stands for sanctification.

The altar of incense represents our prayers but they must be raised with the sweet incense of Christ's merits to be accaptable to God.

"Christ your Mediator stands before the Father to present your prayers as fragrant incense, mingled with his own merit and spotless righteousness."CT 241

The candlestick represents Christ who is the light of the World. We are to be lights in the world as well, but we, when we shine for God are reflectors of the light of Christ Who is the Light!

So yes, our obedience is covered by the merits of Christ to make it pleasing to God.

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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: asygo] #137010
10/23/11 01:45 AM
10/23/11 01:45 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
But I have been contemplating Bill Liversidge's ideas. He says that even "our" obedience is really Jesus obeying through us.

I've never seen EGW express things in these terms. How could Jesus obey with an imperfect obedience? Passages like the following ones may be useful:

In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God. {DA 466.4}

The mind must yield obedience to the royal law of liberty, the law which the Spirit of God impresses upon the heart, and makes plain to the understanding. The expulsion of sin must be the act of the soul itself, in calling into exercise its noblest powers. The only freedom a finite will can enjoy, consists in coming into harmony with the will of God, complying with the conditions that make man a partaker of the divine nature. {OHC 138.4}

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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: Rosangela] #137013
10/23/11 02:05 AM
10/23/11 02:05 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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I will keep thinking about the last few posts.

But I want to clarify something. I'm not saying, and neither is Liversidge, that Jesus' obedience was imperfect. But they are tainted by passing through our corrupt channels of humanity.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: asygo] #137014
10/23/11 02:23 AM
10/23/11 02:23 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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All interesting, but can we be justified by faith alone if we still continue in sin?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: Daryl] #137017
10/23/11 04:20 AM
10/23/11 04:20 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Jesus told a parable

It was about a man who somehow got himself into impossible debt. A debt that he could in no wise repay.

When call by the master to give an account he pleaded to be given more time he would repay all. The master realizing it was impossible totally and completely forgave him his debt.

The man was FREE! No more debt.

But then, instead of living a life of gratitude and goodness, he mets a fellow servant that owed him a small amount.
The fellow servant pleaded to be given more time he would repay all. But the man who was forgiven all would not forgive the little amount, but had his fellow servant put in prison.

When the master heard the news, he called the man back and placed the full debt back upon his account. The man was no longer free, he could not pay and suffered the punishment.

So it is with Justification by Faith

The Lord is willing and eager to declare us Justified and pardon the sins we confess.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are FREE! Freed from sin!
But now what?
Being freed from sin do we go back and continue in sin?
God forbid.

Scripture says:
Ez. 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

After accepting Christ and accepting His Justifiction -- the JUST (those justified) are to live by faith.
The faith that believes God knows what is best and humbly follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Romans 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: asygo] #137022
10/23/11 06:55 PM
10/23/11 06:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
But I want to clarify something. I'm not saying, and neither is Liversidge, that Jesus' obedience was imperfect. But they are tainted by passing through our corrupt channels of humanity.

This thought of Christ's obedience through us still doesn't sound right to me, although I've never read anything penned by Bill Liversidge. What about Adam before the fall? Would his obedience also have been Christ's obedience through him? Or would this apply only to the sinner?

More passages possibly related to the subject:

When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. {FW 50.1}

Jesus bears tenderly with them [James and John], not rebuking their selfishness in seeking preference above their brethren. He reads their hearts, He knows the depth of their attachment to Him. Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love. He will not rebuke, but deepen and purify. {DA 548.6} [Obedience is prompted by this love]

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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: Rosangela] #137041
10/24/11 07:59 PM
10/24/11 07:59 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I've never read anything penned by Bill Liversidge

Here's a link to his book: Overcoming Through JESUS

After spending some paragraphs on Rom 5:18-19, he says this on page 75-76:
Quote:
Have you ever heard someone say (perhaps it was you!), “I’ll never be good enough”? You know, somebody actually wrote a book—a Christian woman wrote a book—called Never Good Enough. And that is how far too many—even good Christians—truly feel. But when you understand that God’s full salvation includes not just being declared righteous but being made righteous as well, you will never even have to ask yourself the question, “Am I good enough?” Why? Because you are depending not on your own obedience and goodness—but in Paul’s words, on the “obedience of the one man.”

What radical conclusion might we possibly come to at this moment about the obedience of Jesus? If it’s only the “obedience of the one man” that God accepts as the means by which we are made righteous, then I’m just wondering if you are having the same radical thought at the moment as I am.

Here it is: “I’ll never be the owner of the obedience—it will always be Jesus who owns it.” None of it belongs to me or comes from me. It’s all from Jesus.

This is a profound, remarkable breakthrough—to see that it’s His obedience. (emphasis in the original)


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: Daryl] #137042
10/24/11 08:03 PM
10/24/11 08:03 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
All interesting, but can we be justified by faith alone if we still continue in sin?

How can we who died to sin live any longer in it? God forbid!

As dedication said, the faith that justifies is the kind that trusts the God knows what is best, and follows His leading. Why would someone do something that he knows God forbids? Because he thinks he has a better plan than God. That is not faith. Such a person is not justified.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: asygo] #137061
10/25/11 12:16 PM
10/25/11 12:16 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
What radical conclusion might we possibly come to at this moment about the obedience of Jesus? If it’s only the “obedience of the one man” that God accepts as the means by which we are made righteous, then I’m just wondering if you are having the same radical thought at the moment as I am.

Here it is: “I’ll never be the owner of the obedience—it will always be Jesus who owns it.” None of it belongs to me or comes from me. It’s all from Jesus.

This is a profound, remarkable breakthrough—to see that it’s His obedience (emphasis in the original)

The question is, What does he mean by that? Is he speaking literally or figuratively?

When Paul says, for instance, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," he is speaking figuratively, for he immediately adds, "and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God." Christ does not live literally in us; we live in union with Christ and assimilate His love.

What I believe about obedience is summarized in the well-known quote:

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will take hold of the Strong for strength. {DA 668.3,4}

Is this what he means?

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Re: Lesson #4 (4th Quarter 2011): Justification by Faith Alone [Re: Rosangela] #137076
10/26/11 01:01 AM
10/26/11 01:01 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
What radical conclusion might we possibly come to at this moment about the obedience of Jesus? If it’s only the “obedience of the one man” that God accepts as the means by which we are made righteous, then I’m just wondering if you are having the same radical thought at the moment as I am.

Here it is: “I’ll never be the owner of the obedience—it will always be Jesus who owns it.” None of it belongs to me or comes from me. It’s all from Jesus.

This is a profound, remarkable breakthrough—to see that it’s His obedience (emphasis in the original)

The question is, What does he mean by that? Is he speaking literally or figuratively?

...{DA 668.3,4}

Is this what he means?

I don't think that's what he meant in the quote, though I don't think he would disagree with DA 668.3,4.

What I get from the book is a very strong emphasis on accepting God's gift to us. I think what he's saying is that our righteousness is completely founded on Christ's obedience, not our own. The obedience that God accepts, which justifies us, is Christ's obedience.

That's why this lesson brought it to mind.

But beyond that, I think he also teaches that even our sanctification, the obedience that pleases God, is Christ's obedience that He does through us. We are merely the conduit for Christ's good works. I don't find that too disturbing.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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