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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: asygo]
#137126
10/28/11 04:32 AM
10/28/11 04:32 AM
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OP
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From Wednesday: The basis of God’s covenant with Abraham centered on God’s promises to him. God says to Abraham four times, “I will.” God’s promises to Abraham are amazing because they are completely one-sided. God does all the promising; Abraham promises nothing. This is the opposite of how most people try to relate to God. We usually promise we will serve Him, if only He will do something for us in return. But that is legalism. God did not ask Abraham to promise anything but to accept His promises by faith. Of course, that was no easy task, because Abraham had to learn to trust completely in God and not in himself (see Genesis 22). The call of Abraham illustrates, therefore, the essence of the gospel, which is salvation by faith. I am uncomfortable with this, to say the least. If salvation was based solely on God's promises, then all would be saved. God wants everyone to be saved, and He has enough power to save everyone. So if salvation is dependent only on Him, then none would be lost. But we know that is not the case. Salvation is by faith. How do we know that Abraham had faith? Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, In both cases, Abraham's faith came with obedience. It was, in other words, faithfulness. Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. But that belief, as it always is with the belief that results in receiving God's righteousness, led to him trusting and obeying God's word. In contrast, unbelief and disobedience go hand in hand. Hebrews 3:18-19 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. And there we see the difference between belief and unbelief. True belief - true faith - gives one access to God's grace, which teaches us to live godly lives in this present age. Anything short of this is unbelief, which only leads to disobedience and death.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: asygo]
#137127
10/28/11 04:36 AM
10/28/11 04:36 AM
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OP
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From Tuesday: Abraham’s obedience was not the ground of his justification; it was, instead, the result. I have a problem with this as well. Justification comes through faith. Obedience is the fruit of faith. They do not cause each other. The only possible exception is if one is using "justified" in the sense of "making just." If so, obedience is not the result of justification, it is the definition.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: asygo]
#137132
10/28/11 12:06 PM
10/28/11 12:06 PM
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The basis of God’s covenant with Abraham centered on God’s promises to him. God says to Abraham four times, “I will.” God’s promises to Abraham are amazing because they are completely one-sided. God does all the promising; Abraham promises nothing. This is the opposite of how most people try to relate to God. We usually promise we will serve Him, if only He will do something for us in return. But that is legalism. God did not ask Abraham to promise anything but to accept His promises by faith. Of course, that was no easy task, because Abraham had to learn to trust completely in God and not in himself (see Genesis 22). The call of Abraham illustrates, therefore, the essence of the gospel, which is salvation by faith. I am uncomfortable with this, to say the least. If salvation was based solely on God's promises, then all would be saved. God wants everyone to be saved, and He has enough power to save everyone. So if salvation is dependent only on Him, then none would be lost. But we know that is not the case. Arnold, I agree with what you said. Abraham's part was to accept God's promises, but God's promises are conditioned to obedience. However, isn't obedience different from promise? Can we promise to obey?
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: asygo]
#137133
10/28/11 12:41 PM
10/28/11 12:41 PM
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Abraham’s obedience was not the ground of his justification; it was, instead, the result. I have a problem with this as well. Justification comes through faith. Obedience is the fruit of faith. They do not cause each other You are right. However, don't we often say we obey not in order to be saved, but because we were saved? I don't see a problem with this statement, because the fact that you were saved implies you had the true faith. Wouldn't this be a case of metonymy (substitution of cause for effect, proper name for one of its qualities, etc.) or synecdoche (substitution of a part for whole, species for genus, etc.)?
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Rosangela]
#137141
10/28/11 05:56 PM
10/28/11 05:56 PM
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Abraham's part was to accept God's promises, but God's promises are conditioned to obedience. However, isn't obedience different from promise? Can we promise to obey? Here's a promise: Ezekiel 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Maybe our obedience is simply accepting this promise from God. Obedience is, after all, a gift from God. It is something we receive from God. And when the true Christian offers his obedience, it must be cleansed by Christ's obedience. If we do promise God to obey Him, it is like promising to give someone filthy rags. Not exactly enticing. That's exactly what the Israelites did at Sinai, thereby establishing the Old Covenant.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Rosangela]
#137142
10/28/11 06:21 PM
10/28/11 06:21 PM
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Abraham’s obedience was not the ground of his justification; it was, instead, the result. I have a problem with this as well. Justification comes through faith. Obedience is the fruit of faith. They do not cause each other You are right. However, don't we often say we obey not in order to be saved, but because we were saved? Maybe we should stop saying that. I think the causality we imply, or even teach, causes problems. Let's consider "we obey because we are saved." Why would salvation cause you to obey? Does it "force" you such that you are unable to disobey. If so, that would make us slaves for eternity. Unpalatable. Is it because of gratitude, perhaps? There are such things as Thank Offerings, such as Cain's offering. However, they are always preceded by a Sin Offering, such as Abel's offering. Without the blood of the Substitute, our offerings are unacceptable. So, in a very real sense, it's really Christ's obedience that we are offering to God, which we get from God in the first place. There's nothing wrong with this concept, as long as we know that our obedience is also received from God. I don't see a problem with this statement, because the fact that you were saved implies you had the true faith. Yes, true faith always comes with both obedience, justification, and salvation. But I don't like the causal link. Wouldn't this be a case of metonymy (substitution of cause for effect, proper name for one of its qualities, etc.) or synecdoche (substitution of a part for whole, species for genus, etc.)? Perhaps. But if we will communicate in this way, it would be just as valid to say that obedience is a means of justification, since true obedience only comes by true faith. And that's exactly what some of our more "conservative" brethren like to say.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137144
10/28/11 06:25 PM
10/28/11 06:25 PM
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In the case where Abraham believed God would provide him an heir and it was counted as righteous - the question is, Did such belief involve obedience? Yes. Keep in mind that Isaac was not a virgin birth. Abraham and Sarah had some work to do. More importantly, when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, his belief that his descendants would come through Isaac allowed him to obey the command.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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