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The Veneration of the Saints Replaced the Pagan Worship of the Dead #137215
11/01/11 05:39 PM
11/01/11 05:39 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
I am trying to trace this back to the original articles that I used and the links but I think they were taken down. But lets take a look at this issue and see if it jogs my memory.

A study of history shows how Veneration of the Saints is nothing but the worship of the dead and how it evolved in the early church which was very interesting.

The pagan festivals of the dead seem to have been among those that showed persistence in survival. There are indications that they were celebrated even under Christian emperors...But even after the pagan festivals ceased to be celebrated, the belief that the spirits of the dead could and, if properly approached, would give aid and protection to the living survived. The leaders of the Church compromised, shifting from the cult of the spirits of ancestors to the veneration of persons whose virtues, sufferings, or miraculous deeds justified their being regarded as intermediaries between God and man. In other words the Saints succeeded to the worship of the dead just as they succeeded to the cult of the departmental deities and to the "little gods" of the Roman household... While the Church claims it never gave the Saints to the people to worship or pray to, the masses of the population made no such fine distinctions, and they came to regard the Saints themselves as present helps in trouble and addressed their prayers directly to them. They were more interested in the power of the dead of pagan beliefs now set up as Saints to help them in their troubles as they had done before.

A good example of the closeness of the resemblance of the specialization of function of different Saints to that of pagan spirits is found in the published lists of Saints used by Spanish peasants... Here are some of the examples furnished by the Spanish index: San Serapio should be appealed to in case of stomach-ache; Santa Polonia for tooth-ache; San Jose ́ , San Juan Bautista and Santa Catalina for headache; San Bernardo and San Cirilo for indigestion; San Luis for cholera; San Francisco for colic; San Ignacio and Santa Lutgarda for childbirth; Santa Balsania for scrofula; San Felix for ulcers; Santa Agueda for nursing mothers; San Babilas for burns; San Gorge for an infected cut; Santa Quiteria for dog's bite; [ p. 12] San Ciriaco for diseases of the ear; Santa Lucia for the eyes; Santa Bibiana for epilepsy; San Gregorio for frost-bite; San Pantaleon for haermorrhoids; San Roque for the plague; Santa Dorothea for rheumatism; San Pedro for fever; and Santa Rita for the impossible.

Apart from the general doctrine of the veneration of Saints, there are some specific festivals of the modern Church that go back directly to pagan customs connected with the dead. One of these is All Saints' Day, now celebrated on the first of November but till the time of Pope Gregory III observed on the thirteenth of May, which was one of the days of the Roman festival of the dead, the Lemuria. Whether there is any connection between these dates or not, the rites of All Saints' Day are a survival not of the Lemuria but of the Parentalia. For in the modern festival the faithful visit the tombs of the Saints, venerate their relics, and pray for their blessing. The next day also, the second of November, All Souls' Day, unquestionably reproduces some of the features of the Parentalia. People go in great numbers to the cemeteries and deck the graves of the members of their family with flowers and candles, and the mass, which takes the place of the ancient sacrifice, is directed to the repose of the souls of the departed.

Last edited by Rick H; 11/01/11 05:47 PM.
Re: The Veneration of the Saints Replaced the Pagan Worship of the Dead [Re: Rick H] #137216
11/01/11 05:39 PM
11/01/11 05:39 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Nothing is more characteristic of paganism and the heathen worship than the worship of idols and relics. Wherever a Cathedral or chapel is opened, or a temple consecrated, it cannot be thoroughly complete without some relic or other of he-saint or she-saint to give sanctity to it. The relics of the saints and rotten bones of the martyrs form a great part of the wealth of the Church.

In Greece, the superstitious regard to relics, and especially to the bones of the deified heroes, was a conspicuous part of the popular idolatry. The work of Pausanias, the learned Grecian antiquary, is full of reference to this superstition. "They" [the Thebans], says Pausanias, "say that his [Hector's] bones were brought hither from Troy, in consequence of the following oracle: "'..Thebans, who inhabit the city of Cadmus, if you wish to reside in your country, blest with the possession of blameless wealth, bring the bones of Hector, the son of Priam, into your dominions from Asia, and reverence the hero agreeably to the mandate of Jupiter....'" In Italy the bones of Virgil attained sanctity, and as the centuries passed they were regarded more and more as a guaranty of safety to the city of Naples where they were deposited. The bones thus carefully kept and reverenced were all believed to be miracle-working bones.

The Christians adapted themselves to the pagan attitude. They matched the miracle-workers of the pagans with wonder-working Saints. The sanctity of relics, well-established as it had been among the pagans, acquired far greater vogue in Christian times and was given a degree of emphasis that it had never had before. The idea showed extension also in the division of the remains of a Saint and in the efficacy attached even to the smallest relic.

Some of the early Christians themselves protested against the cult of the Saints: for example, Vigilantius and Faustus in the fifth century. But on the other side were such great apologists as Augustine, Jerome, Ambrose, Chrysostom, and Basil, who though claiming that God alone was worshipped, expressed full belief in the efficacy of the intercession of the Saints.

When the law was given to the children of Israel at Sinai, they had just been delivered from a country where some of the worst forms of idolatry had been practiced. The chief gods, which the Egyptians worshipped, were the likenesses of Osiris and his wife, Isis. Osiris was known as the god of the dead. All heathen gods were men and women who, after their deaths, were deified and worshipped. In many places, they are still worshipped.

As far back as can be traced, the worship of all pagan deities originated with the worship of dead men and dead women. The Bible speaks very plainly concerning the worship of the dead and the familiar spirits of the dead. Do not seek after those that peep and mutter, the Bible says.(Isaiah 8:19.)(See also Leviticus 19:31; Deuteronomy 18:10–12.) Here is what the Spirit of Prophecy has on this....

"....Nearly all forms of ancient sorcery and witchcraft were founded upon a belief in communion with the dead. Those who practiced the arts of necromancy claimed to have intercourse with departed spirits, and to obtain through them a knowledge of future events. This custom of consulting the dead is referred to in the prophecy of Isaiah: "When they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?" Isaiah 8:19.

Re: The Veneration of the Saints Replaced the Pagan Worship of the Dead [Re: Rick H] #137217
11/01/11 05:48 PM
11/01/11 05:48 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
This same belief in communion with the dead formed the cornerstone of heathen idolatry. The gods of the heathen were believed to be the deified spirits of departed heroes. Thus the religion of the heathen was a worship of the dead. This is evident from the Scriptures. In the account of the sin of Israel at Bethpeor, it is stated: "Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor." Numbers 25:1-3. The psalmist tells us to what kind of gods these sacrifices were offered. Speaking of the same apostasy of the Israelites, he says, "They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead" (Psalm 106:28); that is, sacrifices that had been offered to the dead.

The deification of the dead has held a prominent place in nearly every system of heathenism, as has also the supposed communion with the dead. The gods were believed to communicate their will to men, and also, when consulted, to give them counsel. Of this character were the famous oracles of Greece and Rome.....Page 684, Patriarchs and Prophets"

All graven images of worship usually represent dead heroes, ancestors, or, as we find in modern forms of this idolatrous worship, the saints and the Virgin Mary. Interestingly, in the Catholic structure, a person does not become a saint until he or she is dead.

Idol worship denigrates the idea of worshipping God to the level of worshipping stone or wood images of the dead. The apostles were scarcely dead before the early Christians began to make graven images of them. The apostasy ripened into its full fruitage between the fourth and the eighth centuries and continues to this day.

Re: The Veneration of the Saints Replaced the Pagan Worship of the Dead [Re: Rick H] #137310
11/06/11 11:03 PM
11/06/11 11:03 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,122
Nova Scotia, Canada
Seems like nobody is taking you up on this thread, at least not yet.

Bumping it though, just in case it was somehow missed.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The Veneration of the Saints Replaced the Pagan Worship of the Dead [Re: Daryl] #137360
11/08/11 11:45 AM
11/08/11 11:45 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Well some people just dont like history, but since it is on how the pagan corruption crept into the church, there probably is some interest on the topic. Here is some other facts that Christians should know.. The Papacy allowed the traditional Roman mysteries and deities of solar monism such as Mithras and Sol Invictus and idol worship back into the church, and to conciliate the Pagans to nominal Christianity, the Catholic Church took measures to amalgamate the Christian and Pagan festivals so pagans would join the church; for example, bringing in the pagan festival of Easter as a substitute for the Pasch or Passover, although neither Jesus nor his Apostles gave any such changes. The Papacy that arose after the Roman Empire slowly became corrupted as it strove to attain power over the other Bishops and authority over the whole Christian believers but allowed or retained pagan beliefs held during the Empire. It arrayed itself in a Christian garb on the pagan heathen one that had dominated during the Roman Empire. For example, it reinstated the ceremonies and obligations of the Collegium Pontificum and the position of Pontifex Maximus of the ancient Roman polytheistic religion and created Christian orders to replace the ancient Roman ones such as the Vestal Virgins and the flamines.

Re: The Veneration of the Saints Replaced the Pagan Worship of the Dead [Re: Rick H] #137676
11/26/11 02:20 PM
11/26/11 02:20 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
With the spread of Christianity, it picked up and was more paganized than changing the pagans to Christianity and was influenced by pagan rituals and mystery religions, in a number of ways.

Pagan and Greek philosophy influenced Christian dogma or the doctrine of the Christian Church Fathers from the 2nd to 5th century. The practices including 'Christianized' sun worship were allowed or supported by some such as Clement of Alexandria, (c. AD 150-215) who explains that "prayers are offered while looking toward sunrise in the East" because the Orient represents the birth of light that "dispels the darkness of the night" and because of the orientation of "the ancient temples." or Origen (c. AD 185-254), according to whom with the East symbolizes the soul that looks to the source of light.

A strong influence here was Roman imperial cult, Hellenistic philosophy, notably Neoplatonism, and Gnosticism. Christological disputes continued to dominate Christian theology well into the Early Middle Ages, down to the Third Council of Constantinople of AD 680.

Then you have the influences of pagan religions Christianized later in the Early Middle Ages. This includes Germanic paganism, Celtic paganism, Slavic paganism and Folk religion in general.In the course of the Christianisation of Europe in the Early Middle Ages, the Christian churches adopted many elements of national cult and folk religion, resulting in national churches like Latin, Germanic, Russian, Armenian, Greek and so on. Some Pagan ceremonies became modern holidays as pagans joined the early church.

One goal of the Reformation was to return the Christian churches to the state of early Christianity and like Martin Luther and other Reformers argue that Catholic church had departed from Apostolic Christianity due, in part, to such Pagan influences that they allowed in the church.

Last edited by Rick H; 11/26/11 02:21 PM.
Re: The Veneration of the Saints Replaced the Pagan Worship of the Dead [Re: Rick H] #137873
12/03/11 12:24 PM
12/03/11 12:24 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,122
Nova Scotia, Canada
If people had understood the doctrine on the State of the Dead, this may not have crept into the church in the first place.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php

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