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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#142229
05/09/12 03:59 AM
05/09/12 03:59 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men. {CD 366.1}
This tells me that milk and eggs are not necessary, assuming that God has made provision for the time when milk and eggs are no longer safe. And based on some of the reports on the health of these animals today, that time may very well be now. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (Mark 13:17) This tells me that children are not necessary, assuming that Jesus has made provision for the end times. Actually, I know several people who do just fine without children. I even know some who are fine without spouses.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#142233
05/09/12 05:23 AM
05/09/12 05:23 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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The Orient
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I have seen a study posted online somewhere, but cannot seem to find it just now, that gave statistics comparing meat eaters, lacto-ovo vegetarians, and vegans for all causes of death. Vegans and meat eaters were almost tied in their mortality rates, while lacto-ovo vegetarians had better longevity. If I find it again, I will post it. I found the information, so here is the info, and then I will make a table below it giving the data in a more readable format. Mortality in 5 diet groups Diet was categorized further into 5 groups. The nonvegetarians were subdivided into regular meat eaters [ate meat ≥1 time/wk (reference group)], occasional meat eaters (ate meat occasionally but <1 time/wk), and fish eaters (never ate meat but did eat fish). The vegetarians were subdivided into vegetarians (ate dairy products, eggs, or both) and vegans (did not eat any animal products). In the Health Food Shoppers Study there was no information on the frequency of meat consumption or on the consumption of fish or eggs; therefore, this study was excluded from the analysis (Table 7). Compared with the regular meat eaters, death rate ratios were significantly <1.00 for lung cancer in the vegetarians (P < 0.05), for ischemic heart disease in the occasional meat eaters, fish eaters (both P < 0.01), and vegetarians (P < 0.001); for other causes of death in the occasional meat eaters (P < 0.01); and for all causes of death in the occasional meat eaters (2P < 0.001), fish eaters, and vegetarians (both P < 0.05). However, the exclusion of data from the Health Food Shoppers Study in this analysis tended to lower the death rate ratio in the vegetarian groups compared with the nonvegetarian groups.
The number of vegans was small (n = 753 subjects, 68 deaths), so the analyses in Table 7Go were repeated with the inclusion of data from the Health Food Shoppers Study, making the assumptions that all nonvegetarians were regular meat eaters and that vegetarians who reported that they did not consume dairy products were vegans. This increased the number of vegans to 1146, of whom 165 died before age 90 y. However, the numbers of deaths from individual cancers among vegans remained small (range: 3–8). The death rate ratios for the vegans compared with the regular meat eaters from the other causes of death were: for ischemic heart disease, 0.89 (95% CI: 0.65, 1.24; NS); for cerebrovascular disease, 0.51 (95% CI: 0.26, 1.00; NS); for other causes, 1.39 (95% CI: 1.12, 1.72; P < 0.01); and for all causes, 1.06 (95% CI: 0.81, 1.38). However, these death rate ratios should be interpreted with caution because of the uncertainty of the dietary classification of subjects in the Health Food Shoppers Study. Dietary Group | Mortality Rate |
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Regular meat eaters [ate meat ≥1 time/wk (reference group)] | 1.00 | Vegans | 1.06 | This table based on information given in the preceding paragraph. Note that lower numbers are better. |
Here's another chart, based on the same study, which presents a slightly different figure. It may have been looking at a more rigid set of criteria for accepting that people were vegan other than that they did not use dairy products. I'm really not sure why the text has the 1.06 rate for vegans and the companion chart has it at 1.00. Anyhow, here is the table with all five diet categories shown. Dietary Group | Mortality Rate |
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Regular meat eaters [ate meat ≥1 time/wk (reference group)] | 1.00 | Occasional meat eaters (ate meat occasionally but <1 time/wk) | 0.84 | Fish eaters (never ate meat but did eat fish) | 0.82 | Vegetarians (ate dairy products, eggs, or both) | 0.84 | Vegans (did not eat any animal products) | 1.00 | This table based on information presented in chart form with the same study as shown above. Note that lower numbers are better. |
Considering this is a broad study of well over 75,000 people, of which nearly 1,000 were vegan, the results have some significance. The study shows that vegans and meat eaters have about the same life expectancy. Those with greater longevity are those vegetarians who add a little dairy, eggs, or fish to their diet. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#142262
05/10/12 07:28 PM
05/10/12 07:28 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
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The vegetarians were subdivided into vegetarians (ate dairy products, eggs, or both) and vegans (did not eat any animal products). So? Did the vegans eat healthy or did they eat sugar, drink, etc. or are you making some assumptions here? I make the assumption that, as with most people, and as manufacturers do, when they leave off meat, they add the sugar and fat to make up for it. Why would your assumption be any more valid than mine?
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142265
05/10/12 07:48 PM
05/10/12 07:48 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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If the milk and eggs were truly harmful, where are Mrs. White's statements to that effect? On the contrary, there are many statements to the opposite meaning from her own pen. She is alluding to the statements made by those who have chosen to abstain from milk and eggs, e.g. yourself.
Suppose milk and eggs were not truly harmful. Why then, did she make the statements APL and others have quoted? Why should "soon" we need to give them up? She doesn't speak of the items being harmful. She speaks of them as being declared harmful. This is an important distinction. Her statement that they fail to supply the system with proper nourishment by trying to abstain from these so-called "harmful" things tells us that they are not harmful, but helpful.
Again, if they were helpful, why would we need to soon give them up? Why should we tell "the people be taught how to prepare food without the use of milk or butter"? Why should we "Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men"? Why should the diet reform be progressive? How "progressive" has it been for 100 years? Why should "The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable"? If milk and eggs were truly healthful.... But if not, then it makes sense. How do you resolve the statements?
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: APL]
#142266
05/10/12 07:56 PM
05/10/12 07:56 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
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If we think that just because we give up meat and other animal products that we will be disease free, we are kidding ourselves. If you are emphasizing "just", then I would agree. Otherwise, a little reasoning would show it otherwise. You would agree that eating certain foods will make you sick. If we didn't eat those foods, we would not experience the sickness caused by them. If we replaced those harmful foods with wholesome foods, then it would stand to reason, we would not get sick. Unless you are saying as some doctors tell patients to go ahead and eat whatever you want since diet doesn't affect your health. Everything you put in your mouth either harms you or heals you. Also, what is going on in the videos about curing diabetes in 30 days, forks over knives, etc.? Sounds to me that eating the correct foods will not only cure disease, but prevent it, as many are finding out and experiencing. Unfortunately, as the video pointed out, the desire of appetite is strong, and some choose to die rather than give up their pleasure.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142267
05/10/12 07:59 PM
05/10/12 07:59 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Midland
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The study shows that vegans and meat eaters have about the same life expectancy. And that's not a correct statement based on the study.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142270
05/10/12 09:02 PM
05/10/12 09:02 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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If we think that just because we give up meat and other animal products that we will be disease free, we are kidding ourselves. If you are emphasizing "just", then I would agree. Otherwise, a little reasoning would show it otherwise. You would agree that eating certain foods will make you sick. If we didn't eat those foods, we would not experience the sickness caused by them. If we replaced those harmful foods with wholesome foods, then it would stand to reason, we would not get sick. Unless you are saying as some doctors tell patients to go ahead and eat whatever you want since diet doesn't affect your health. Everything you put in your mouth either harms you or heals you. Also, what is going on in the videos about curing diabetes in 30 days, forks over knives, etc.? Sounds to me that eating the correct foods will not only cure disease, but prevent it, as many are finding out and experiencing. Unfortunately, as the video pointed out, the desire of appetite is strong, and some choose to die rather than give up their pleasure. I've met just about all the prime people in the movie, "Forks over knives". There is no question that many of our chronic diseases can be "cured" by diet, and that diet consists of plants. But do you know any 120 year old vegans? Any 120 year old lacto/ovo vegetarians? Any 120 year old carnivores? I don't. We ALL die. And do recall the quote above by EGW that "Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death. {Ed 26.3}" What is the history in the Bible on diet? In Eden: plants. In the wilderness: manna, which was not animal! Remember what happened to the quail eaters. Daniel: Pulse and water; plants. John the Baptist: "purely vegetable" quoting EGW. Is there a pattern here? A type as it were? What is the anti-type?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142273
05/11/12 12:34 AM
05/11/12 12:34 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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The vegetarians were subdivided into vegetarians (ate dairy products, eggs, or both) and vegans (did not eat any animal products). So? Did the vegans eat healthy or did they eat sugar, drink, etc. or are you making some assumptions here? The quote you quoted above was from the study. I didn't make any assumptions there; those are not my words. I make the assumption that, as with most people, and as manufacturers do, when they leave off meat, they add the sugar and fat to make up for it. Why would your assumption be any more valid than mine?
Talking about the validity of personal assumptions sounds like a good way to make enemies fast. Assumptions are assumptions. They are not facts. Neither set of assumptions can logically be said to be more credible or "valid," if pure logic has only the assumptions themselves to look at. But this is where the writeup of the study sheds some interesting insight. Look at the following observation which is made of the Oxford study. The mortality of both the vegetarians and the nonvegetarians in this study is low compared with national rates. Would this perchance be because those who are interested in participating in a study of this kind are already health-minded? I would suggest that those who are vegan will also be those who have better lifestyle habits in general: exercise, no smoking, no alcohol, fewer candy bars and potato chips, no snacking between meals, and they probably buy more organic and non-GMO foods. Naturally, this is a "stereotype." It will not hold true for every individual. But if it holds true for over half of those in the population group under study, it will affect the numbers accordingly, and this is why we look at averages. Personally, I am not acquainted with any strict vegans who have blatant hypocrisies in their diet such as immoderate consumption of junk foods, etc. (I say "immoderate" because most vegans will, when presented with no other options as when travelling, etc., eat a few potato chips or a cookie.) I also am not acquainted with any obese persons whom I am certain are vegan. I know many lacto-ovo vegetarians who are obese. I cannot bring to mind any obese vegans. I know of one person who claims to be vegan, and is obese, but has been seen eating cheese, etc. at church potlucks. So I cannot safely conclude that said individual truly follows a vegan dietary. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142274
05/11/12 12:50 AM
05/11/12 12:50 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Suppose milk and eggs were not truly harmful. Why then, did she make the statements APL and others have quoted? Why should "soon" we need to give them up? ...
Again, if they were helpful, why would we need to soon give them up? Why should we tell "the people be taught how to prepare food without the use of milk or butter"? Why should we "Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men"? Why should the diet reform be progressive? How "progressive" has it been for 100 years? Why should "The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable"? If milk and eggs were truly healthful.... But if not, then it makes sense. How do you resolve the statements? Is it healthful to eat Brussels sprouts, tomatoes, spinach, lettuce, and cabbage? I'm sure most people class these among the healthful food options. But what if they are contaminated with Salmonella or E. coli? Are they then healthful? Multiple recalls and warnings have gone out in the past several years for these vegetables and more. That is the same situation I see with eggs. There may come a time when the eggs themselves carry disease and cannot be safely eaten. This does not mean that an uncontaminated egg would be unhealthful, any more than that green leafy vegetables are unhealthful just because sometimes they have been contaminated. In fact, Ellen White is clear about it. We are to be brought into connection with the masses. Should health reform be taught them in its most extreme form, harm would be done. We ask them to leave off eating meat and drinking tea and coffee. This is well. But some say that milk also should be given up. This is a subject that needs to be carefully handled. There are poor families whose diet consists of bread and milk, and, if they can get it, a little fruit. All flesh food should be discarded, but vegetables should be made palatable with a little milk or cream or something equivalent. Are you telling everyone to leave off milk, cream and eggs? If so, you risk running counter to God's instructions here. Mrs. White is basically telling us there is "harm" in giving up milk. That may be a type of "harm" that does not related to physical health. It might be a financial, emotional, or spiritual harm. In any case, we are told not to teach people to give it up. She has similar thing to say about eggs. Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence, have become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought into disrepute. The work that we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required, and the energies of the church are crippled. But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring rich and poor together at the feet of Jesus. {CD 207.5}
While warnings have been given regarding the dangers of disease through butter, and the evil of the free use of eggs by small children, yet we should not consider it a violation of principle to use eggs from hens that are well cared for and suitably fed. Eggs contain properties that are remedial agencies in counteracting certain poisons. {CCh 237.4} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142275
05/11/12 12:51 AM
05/11/12 12:51 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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The study shows that vegans and meat eaters have about the same life expectancy. And that's not a correct statement based on the study. Please expand upon this. Why do you thus conclude? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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