History shows us how the church at Rome allow ancient pagan festival and the pagan solstice celebrations to be brought in and given a Christian veneer so pagans could join and continue as they had during the Empire. The pagan festival of Easter was nothing else but the pagan worhisp of Ashtarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the Queen of Heaven. The Easter “buns” were used in the worship of the queen of heaven, the goddess of Easter and was recorded as early as the days of Cecrops, the founder of Athens, fifteen hundred years before the Christian era. The prophet Jeremiah takes notice of this offering when he says,

“The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough to make cakes to the Queen of heaven.” ( Jer. 7:18 )

The origin of the Easter egg, was from ancient times were they were used in religious rituals throughout Egypt and Greece and can be traced to the banks of the Euphrates and Babylon paganism. Pagan priests were celibate, tonsured, and received the power of sacrificing for the living and the dead. The goddess in ancient religions was worshipped as the life giver and nurturer and as such, this religion was imbued with sexual undertones. Phallic symbols, as well as symbols of femininity and divine intercourse, were common in ancient temples (as they are in some modern churches and temples). Other symbols of pagan worship include the solar wheel dating back to the Chaldeans, halos, astrological signs, globes as symbols of rulership of the universe, sacred hearts as used in many sun cults, sacred animals (many of them mythological such as dragons, the serpent, unicorn and the phoenix), fertility symbols such as pine cones (pagan deities wore the pine cone on their crosier), and prayer beads for repetitive prayers even though the Bible admonishes:

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Matthew 6:7

Now the tradition the church at Rome was following did exist, but it wasnt the tradition of the Apostles as we can see from the changes. But there was a tradition, a corruption from the Gnostic sect which had brought about what is called the Disciplina Arcani or Discipline of the Secret or Discipline of the Arcane, which was a restriction imposing silence upon Christians with respect to their rites and doctrines. It was a theological term used to describe the 'tradition' or custom which came in and prevailed in the church, whereby knowledge of the more 'intimate mysteries' of the Christian religion was carefully kept from non-Christians and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the faith. By this time the church had fallen into apostasy and had picked up pagan oral teachings from Greek and Hellenistic sources which formed the basis of this secret oral tradition, which in the 4th century came to be called the disciplina arcani. It is believe that it contained liturgical details and certain other pagan traditions which remain a part of Christianity, for example, the doctrine of Transubstantiation is thought to have been a part of this.

Disciplina Arcani: A Latin phrase, meaning discipline of the secret and referring to a practice of the early Church, especially during the Roman persecutions, to: (1) conceal Christian truths from those who, it was feared, would misinterpret, ridicule and profane the teachings, and persecute Christians for believing them; (2) instruct catechumens in a gradual manner, withholding the teaching of certain doctrines until the catechumens proved themselves of good faith and sufficient understanding.

http://www.osv.com/OSV4MeNav/CatholicAl ... fault.aspx, Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Almanac: Glossary D-M, “Disciplina Arcani”:

This term signifies in general that which is unknowable, or valuable knowledge that is kept secret. In pagan antiquity the word mystery was used to designate certain esoteric doctrines, such as Pythagoreanism, or certain ceremonies that were performed in private or whose meaning was known only to the initiated, e.g., the Eleusinian rites, Phallic (penis) worship. In the language of the early Christians the mysteries were those religious teachings that were carefully guarded from the knowledge of the profane (see DISCIPLINE OF THE SECRET).

..theological term used to express the custom which prevailed in the earliest ages of the Church, by which the knowledge of the more intimate mysteries of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the heathen and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the Faith. The custom itself is beyond dispute.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05032a.htm (Catholic Encyclopedia), Discipline of the Secret (Latin Disciplina Arcani ):

There are many other "unwritten mysteries of the Church," says St. Basilc. 66 and 67). They are not mentioned in the Scripture. But they are of great authority and significance. They are indispensable for the preservation of right faith. They are effective means of witness and communication. According to St. Basil, they come from a "silent" and "private" tradition: [From the silent and mystical tradition, from the unpublic and ineffable teaching]. This "silent" and "mystical" tradition, "which has not been made public," is not an esoteric doctrine, reserved for some particular elite. The "elite" was the Church. In fact, "tradition" to which St. Basil appeals, is the liturgical practice of the Church. St. Basil is referring here to what is now denoted as disciplina arcani [The discipline of secrecy].

[Cf. Hermann Dörries, De Spiritu Sancto, Der Beitrag des Basilius zum Abschluss des trinitarischen Dogmas (Göttingen, 1956); J. A. Jungmann, S.J., Die Stellung Christi im liturgischen Gebet, 2. Auflage (Münster i/W, 1962), ss. 155 ff., 163 ff.; Dom David Amand, L’ascese monastique de Saint Basile, Editions de Maredsous (1949), pp. 75-85. The footnotes in the critical editions of the treatise De Spiritu S. by C. F. H. Johnson (Oxford, 1892) and by Benoit Pruche, O.P. (in the ‘Sources Chrètiennes,’ Paris, 1945) are highly instructive and helpful. On disciplina arcani see O. Perler, s.v. Arkandisciplin, in ‘Reallexikon für Antike and Christentum,’ Bd. I (Stuttgart, 1950), ss. 671-676,. Joachim Jeremias, Die Abendmahlsworte Jesu (Göttingen, 1949), ss. 59 ff., 78 ff., contended that disciplina arcani could be detected already in the formation of the text of the Gospels, and actually existed also in Judaism; cf. the sharp criticism of this thesis by R. P. C. Hanson, Tradition in the Early Church (London, 1962), pp. 27 ss].

But was it the mysteries from pagan religions along with the Babylonian system of worship essentially picked up and maintained and hidden as 'Mysteries' in some form or another in the church. Lets dig into this a little..

So lets focus on the origin of these 'Mysteries'... It seems that Rome and Alexandria in which many corruptions from pagan worship and Greek mythology and Hellenistic philosophy and Gnosticism had come into the early church and this included the ancient 'Mysteries'...

'The idea of self-knowledge is central to the purpose of the ancient Mysteries. The Greek Temple of Apollo at Delphi had inscribed ‘Gnothi Seauton’ or ‘Know thy Self.’ The Gnosis[8] or knowledge which initiates of the Mysteries sought and Masters taught was the knowledge of self...The Mysteries demanded complete adherence to silence among its adherents....This demand was taken seriously in the Eleusinian Mysteries as failure to keep vows resulted in death. For this reason very little direct information exists concerning details of the Mysteries- the ritual, passwords, symbols and text....The Lesser mysteries were a preparation for the Greater ones. They were performed at Agrae on the river Ilissus (outside Athens) in the month of Anthesterion (February-March). Because of the oaths for secrecy we have sparse testimony of what exactly took place in the initiation ceremony. Something was recited, something was revealed, and acts were performed. Also, the initiates took an oath of secrecy before preparing for the Greater mysteries. The penalty for revealing the mysteries to outsiders was death... The Greater mysteries included baptism in the sea, three days of fasting, and the completion of the mysterious central rite. These acts completed the initiation, and the initiate was promised rewards in the life after death......The cults of the mystery religions were influenced uniformly by the ideas of the Greek philosophers. A few of them existed before the turn of the Era, but several more appeared at about the turn of the Era. They reached their height of popularity during the times of early Christianity. Christianity was born during a period of proliferation.

The following features were common to all mystery religions. Admission to the community was by a rite of initiation, a solemn consecration. The initiation was held in secret, which explains why they were called "mysteries."...
http://www.egodeath.com/bensonmysteryrels.htm

"The cults of the mystery religions were influenced uniformly by the ideas of the Greek philosophers. A few of them existed before the turn of the Era, but several more appeared at about the turn of the Era. They reached their height of popularity during the times of early Christianity. Christianity was born during a period of proliferation. Christianity itself in the beginning consisted of many cults that existed independently and had very diverse doctrines. Because of such diversity, it is debatable whether Gnosticism was just another cult of Christianity or whether it was a separate religion.

In the following passage Porphyry accuses Origen for copying from the Stoics the figurative interpretation, which was the interpretation also used by the Greek mystery religions. "... He [Origen] used the books of Chaeremon the Stoic and Cornutus, from whom he learned the figurative interpretation, as employed in the Greek mysteries ..." The Greek mystery religions used allegorical interpretation before Christianity. ..

Now this is interesting "Christianity was essentially one of the mystery religions of the first century. Clement of Alexandria claimed it was the best, and rightly so because it managed to wipe out its competitors and forerunners"
http://www.egodeath.com/bensonmysteryrels.htm

Now the problem was that many Christians including leaders had picked up the pagan 'Mysteries'. Clement of Alexandria stated that “what was taught in the Mysteries concerned the universe, and was the completion and perfection of all instruction; wherein things were seen as they were, and nature and her works were made known.”

Clement of Alexandria writings show that he was completer imersed in the pagan 'Myesteries' and are full of terminology taken directly from the language of the Pagan Mysteries. He writes of the Christian revelation as “the holy Mysteries.” , the ‘divine secrets’, ‘... Clement further states “I am become holy while I am being initiated.” Clement tells us that in early Christianity there were likewise Lesser Mysteries for beginners on the spiritual path and Greater Mysteries which were a secret higher knowledge, which led to full ‘initiation.’ ‘The secret traditions of true Gnosis,’ he explains, had been transmitted “to a small number, by a succession of masters, and not in writing.”

"Alexandria was, in addition, one of the chief seats of that peculiar mixed pagan and Christian speculation known as Gnosticism. Basilides and Valentinus taught there. It is no matter of surprise, therefore, to find some of the Christians affected in turn by the scientific spirit. At an uncertain date, in the latter half of the second century, "a school of oral instruction" was founded. "
http://essenechristianity.com/clement_of_alexandria.htm

Interesting, a school of oral tradition, the picture starts to get clearer...

So what really are these 'Catholic Mysteries'? Below are a few more quotes that confirms the Roman Catholic Church took on many pagan traditions even from the mystery religions all the way from the ancient creeds and pagan worship that started at Babylon and got passed on to the Persions, Greeks, and Romans in the Roman Empire finding its way into the church.

“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.” — An Essay on The Development of the Christian Doctrine John Henry “Cardinal Newman” p.373.

“It has often been charged… that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that accusation and even to make it her boast… the great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized” — The Story of Catholicism p 37.

“It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans … Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds…” — (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942).

The Catholic Mysteries are the 'mystery of iniquity'.

Rick H,

Have you more information on this, or is this it?

I would like more, if you have it.

May I share something here in the name of Jesus?

When I first became an SDA, the first pastor I met after my conversion gave me a book from Leo Schreven detailing who the beast is.

I had been raised Catholic but never gravitated to the teachings and left as soon as I was of age. I found it very interesting that the SDA church discredited much of what Catholicism taught because I had such a disdain for praying to saints and Mary etc.

In this book he kept making reference to the book "thunders of Justice" about the visions of Mary around the world, even quoting from the false prophecies that supposedly came from Marry's lips.

Since I was a brand new Adventist having been led by the Spirit to our faith and already having dreams myself, I found the topic very eerie and questioned our Lord in prayer whether I should be reading such things, and here was the response the Lord gave me which blew my socks off.

That night in a dream I saw John the writer of Revelation, beloved friend to Jesus and surrogate son of Mary. He was on the Isle of Patmos and in vision.

In my dream I was watching John witness the vision God gave him in Rev 17:6 (ASV).

He was witnessing the future, seeing the the spectacle that Satan will perpetrate against the world in the last days. In my dream, when John saw the resurrected beast, he WONDERED with GREAT ADMIRATION after the beast. The angel had to stop John and grabbed his arm saying "Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns."

Then I woke up from my dream with the image ringing in my head. I heard the still small voice say "why do you wonder after the beast?" and in my head I saw the Marion apparitions that I had been reading about, in their true light, vicious and horrendous in scope. They look innocent enough but they are poison. There is NOTHING redeemable in their teachings and the Holy Spirit showed me that Mr Schreven will be ashamed for presenting these things in our churches.

This is what MY GOD showed me the meaning of this dream was...

There is no good thing that comes from reading the doctrines of the fallen church.

John had walked with Jesus and witnessed every aspect of our Lords ministry, even trusted to take care of His mother after his death and resurrection. No man has ever been as close to our Savior, but even he, when seeing what is about to transpire in our world could not overcome the spectacle and he WONDERED after the beast.

What makes us think we can resist the devices of Satan by reading his works? There is NOTHING to gain by reading the works of the Catholic church. PERIOD!

Peace and strength to overcome in the name of our Master, the creator God Elohim, amen.

Jamesonofthunder,

Generally, I agree with you on this. However, Ellen White tells us that if we criticize the beliefs of another (such as the doctrines of the Catholic Church), it is a sin to do so UNLESS we have investigated them and know for ourselves what it is that they believe. That does not mean that we should immerse ourselves in studying every aspect of their thinking because that can be dangerous, but before we open our mouths to say something, we should know something about what it is that we are saying is wrong. Of course, our primary purpose should be to show them the truth, but we cannot do that without also saying something to the effect that there are problems with their own beliefs so that we can point them in the direction of truth.

Now, you know what it is that they believe because you have been one of them, so can speak from personal knowledge. But many of us do not have that knowledge. We need not and should not know everything of theirs, but I do believe that having some basic knowledge of the history of their beliefs and how they came about is useful knowlege in dealing with them.

I have a friend many years ago who got mixed up with a group of Shepherd's Rods in the city where I was living. I could not converse with him about what was right and wrong about what he believed without first asking some questions of him about what on earth it was that they believed. It turns out that one of their beliefs was that at the end of time they were to kill all Adventists who would not become Shepherd's Rods also (I am not joking here). Another was that they were to keep all feasts which said that they were to be kept until the end of all generations. When I learned this last one, I thought about that and did some reading and finally realized that though there were feasts described that way, I also found that the ceremony of circumcision was also described that way, and yet it was done away with as a requirement at the cross. So, I then went back to my friend and pointed this out to him. This kind of shook him up a bit, but then he came across some things that his "prophet" had told him, and justified what they were teaching. In the end, my friend went with his group to Jerusalem where they were going to try to remain as illegal aliens in Israel and hopefully become part of the 144,000. When they got there, their prophet took their money from them to secure a place for them and left. What they did not know until days later is that he actually took their money, got on another plane back to the city from which they all came here in the United States, and laughed all the way to the bank. I am sure he lived quite well for years off of that money. There was nothing they could do about it. Fortunately, he did not take their passports, or they would have been in much worse trouble.

It was important for me to investigate because I knew my friend was in trouble, and though I was unsuccessful in getting him out of it, having investigated their beliefs and then comparing it to the real truth of the Bible helped seal me against believing their false teachings. Years later my mother-in-law and her sister both told me stories about the man who originally started the Shepherd's Rods and I realized even more then that there was great evil behind this movement. They both personally knew the man who started that movement and were present in the church in California where it all started. They saw what happened.

God says that "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." We most need the real truth, but they must know how to deal with the false when it is presented to us. You can recognize the false by knowing the genuine, but if you never see the false until you are under pressure, you may not know how to deal with it. Of course, if you study the false all the time, you may come to believe the false.

So, we should study truth. It should comprise the main body of our study. But we should know enough to know how to intelligently talk to people out there so that you can present real truth to them. If you don't have some idea about both true and false beliefs that people have, its very hard to get a conversation going with them about truth.

For example, what do you know about the Muslims? How do you approach them? Do you know that they believe in the final judgment? Do you know that they too follow essentially the same health laws of the Bible that we do? These are ways that you can deal with them and open conversation with them. But what else do you know about their beliefs? Do you know some of their false ideas, and from that you can talk to them about what the truth really is?

I would love to read that quote from Ellen White Brother Wendell.

We should be as wise as the serpent, yet gentle as the dove. This I know from scripture. But we are also not supposed to sit in the seat of the scornful.

If someone speaks of their religions doctrines, the Spirit of remembrance causes us to speak the words of truth, a word in due season, He does not cause us to go to our memories of false doctrines to have something in common with them. If we are not speaking with the power of the Holy Spirit it is better to keep our mouth shut because it does absolutely no good for the hearer.

We do not win souls to the Adventist faith by debate or the cunning of men but by the word of God.

How do you relate to a Muslim? By being a good Christian and help them when needed. To relate as a person of good will towards them. (do not offer our traditions to them)

I have spent months in Muslim countries and witnessed first hand how to relate to them. (I believe this is why I am so unsympathetic toward the impotence of our own people because how weak we are in discipline comparatively) They do not like to debate their doctrines. If you do, you might lose your head for trying to convert them because it is against Sharia law, so be careful how you think on this matter! The only way to address their faith is by living the life of a true Christian, then they come to you asking questions. When in Indonesia (80% Muslim) after they got to know me I literally had to schedule appointments with all the Muslims who wanted to ask me questions in private.

Did Jesus learn all He could about pagan rituals to have something to talk about with pagans? Historical elements are OK to learn, but to study false prophecies or doctrines to know how the true prophecies will be fulfilled is against the will of the Father, and if you prayed about this we wouldn't be having this debate.

Here is the main undiluted point, does God want us to know the doctrines of the Nicolaitans which He hates, to know what to stay away from? No way, all He wants us to know is not to say "it's all good" and to hold on to what He told us to keep, His Spirit of truth which causes us to hate their doctrines.

Do we need to know the doctrines of the Catholic church to know the fulfillment of any part of Revelation? Would God have us study the counterfeit to distinguish the truth?

NO WAY!

But it is very important to know how they became the whore historically and to see the fulfillment of the word of God in their existence.

We do not go into their lair to learn their secrets, we see the fulfillment of God's word in their historical proclamations and errors. is it a deep search in their doctrines to discover the pope claims to be the vicar of Christ? No, because that is his official title. Is it a deep search in their doctrines to see that they put over 40 million to death in their 1260 years of domination? No, it's historical.

We should never have to go to them for the information God has told us to look for.

Do you see the difference?

(this was a major debate that I had with Elder Samuel Bacchiocchi before he died, who claimed he had a deeper understanding of prophecy because he studied in the Vatican)

Here is the quote of what she actually said:



I quoted it from memory, having seen it long ago, so I did not quote it entirely accurately. But the idea is there.

Wendell - you posted the above quote as if it were a direct quote. It is not. Do you have a direct quote? You are quoting from Chapter 81 of 2T. The meaning may be there, but by implication, it appears that you were doing a direct quote.

APL has a perfect point here, be careful how you quote things. From the way you quote it, you make it sound as if we are to study paganism so we will not bring shame to the church in the name of God.

In the perfect sense of the intent of what Mrs White truly said, you should be testing the Spirit on the things I am as a brother claiming God showed me in dreams and visions because they are within the guidelines of our faith. Since most of you have been reluctant to do this, you are guilty of committing the same offence against God as the subject of the SOP quote you misapplied.

Peace.

Hmmmm. It is inaccurate. Sorry about that.

Jamesonofthunder,

I find it interesting that you had Muslims making appointments with you. But that is in Indonesia where they have almost no exposure to Christians. Here in America, there are lots of Muslims and you don't get questions like that much from them. In the county where I live, there are some 80,000 Arabs living here, many of whom are Muslim. I run into them in the stores sometimes. I personally know of one Muslim, and have had very few questions from him.

So, what worked for you there may not work for you here. I have used my knowledge of the Muslim religion to open up some things with the one Muslim I do know locally and it has helped to have that knowledge. He has never asked me for an appointment so that he can ask me questions. And I don't expect it. There are lots of Christians around here so if he wants to, he has lots of people to pick from.

Wendell - jsot ignored what I was saying, and when on to his agenda. What I was saying, is that you made a quote, at least what appears to be a quote, and it is not a quote at all. That was my point.

As far as knowing the other person, I would agree with you, that knowing what the other person believes and why, can be very useful in meeting them where they are.

APL,

I don't recall clearly how I came about what was supposed to be a quote. Perhaps I summarized it and saved it on my computer, but I normally save the original quote itself, so why would I save only a summary? Maybe I did so anyway and forgot that I had done so. Well, whatever. But the thought of it was there, that I know.

Anyway, I do agree with your other point. It is extremely helpful to know something about what the other person's thinking is so that you can relate to him or her. Otherwise, there is no common ground from which to approach them. Most in this world will not be making appointments with a Christian to learn of his beliefs, even if they see that he lives a genuine Christian life. It just does not happen that way except in certain circumstances. I am glad it did for James while he was living in a Muslim country, but unless one is in the right circumstances, it won't happen.

You have to have a way of finding something in the other person's mind that they are thinking so that you can relate to it. That does not mean we should go digging into all aspects of their religion's teachings, for that may influence us in the wrong direction. But we should at least know something about that which they do believe so that we can work with them. I cannot, for example, talk to a Catholic about their belief in Mary unless I at least understand that they have elevated her to divine status. This gives me the knowledge that I should point out the great creative power that God has and that in Isaiah he describes this power that he has as the creator, which he has because he is God, and that he says he will never give his glory, in other words, his authority as God, to another. This is a permanent promise, so either God is a liar and broke that promise with Mary, or else their thurch's teaching is wrong. This can be pointed out and the person can think about that. If they understand who God is, they'll realize, once this is pointed out, that there is no way that she can be who the Catholic Church claims she is - a person to whom you can pray. But without that basic knowledge of their thinking, there is no way on earth that you will know to tell them about this when the opportunity arises.

Therefore, I do not believe that we should delve deeply into the beliefs of other religions, and yet I also do believe that without some basic knowledge of their religious thinking, we cannot relate to them as effectively as we could if we had such knowledge. Such a lack of knowledge can result in fewer people won over to the truth.

I don't know about you, but I would much rather be more effective. Therefore, it is wise to have some basic knowledge of their thinking, but wise also not to dig deeply into it, but rather focus primarily on the truth.

Muslims hate Christians here in America because the majority of what they come across are self indulgent, right wing Sarah Pallen type of heretics that they would not even want to meet, let alone be forced to shake hands with. (Most Americans don't know that Muslims do not shake hands, especially with infidels who wipe their butts with the same hand they eat with)

I did not ignore this. In fact I am as shocked as you that he made the attempt to do this. But I did not belabor the point as you seem to be doing even after he apologized.

I don't think Wendell is easily offended. Nor does he lash out when he is corrected. And one the point he was making, he is correct, it is good to know what how others think.

In many countries of the world, people are taught to shake hands with the hand that is NOT used to wipe their behind with. The Christians of the world may not have caught on to this, but this is the pattern for many other parts of the world. If you travel to those countries, its a good idea to check with their custom so you know which hand of theirs to shake. Apparently not all follow the same usage rules.

Soon everyone will be doing the fist bump.

Like you?

I rest my case...

Well if I'm on trial, then my closing argument would be, look at the record.

How many times did I attempt to reconcile with you? How many olive branches to make amends?

Then look at how many times you asserted your knowledge and would not try to understand? How much sarcasm did you use in your attempt to discredit the views I have been given by God in many cases. How many times did you bless me brother? Did I hear you ask God to be reconciled or for sound Judgment?

My heart stands clean in the name of Jesus because I am still trying, and you want to argue. So yes let us be judged. But not by any one of us, but by the one who reads the intents of the heart, the One without guile.

Peace in the name of Christ and I hope you are not too hardened.

I agree; let the record be read!

Thank you all for your emails. Peace.