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Re: Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness? Or both?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#144675
08/19/12 11:45 AM
08/19/12 11:45 AM
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Charter Member Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Was Enoch and Elijah perfect and sinless? If yes, they don't need Christ, they don't need a Savior. I never, NEVER said they don't need a savior, in fact, the fact that you surmised this is so ludicrous to me I am questioning your motivation again. OF COURSE THEY HAD A SAVIOR! They had Jesus. Then the question remain: Has they reach the righteous state within self and stand before God in their own righteousness that permitted them to be taken lively into heaven? Or do they stand in Christ righteousness by faith?
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Re: Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness? Or both?
[Re: James Saptenno]
#144677
08/19/12 12:04 PM
08/19/12 12:04 PM
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Charter Member Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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If they were perfect same as Jesus was perfect, and if they never sinned, the law will justify them to live, same as Jesus never sinned and had been justified by the law to live.
Romans 10:5 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law: that “the man who doeth those things shall live by them.”
Galatians 3:12 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) 12 And the law is not of faith, but “The man who doeth them shall live in them.”
They didn't need a Savior, same as Jesus didn't need a Savior.
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Re: Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness? Or both?
[Re: James Saptenno]
#144678
08/19/12 12:06 PM
08/19/12 12:06 PM
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Charter Member Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Romans 2:13 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
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Re: Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness? Or both?
[Re: James Saptenno]
#144682
08/19/12 02:53 PM
08/19/12 02:53 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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Of course they sinned before being perfected. They stand perfected in the Righteousness of Christ, not perfect in themselves.
I don't know, maybe your comprehension of the English language is putting a barrier between us, but I am starting to think you are here to be a distraction!
Then you go and quote Romans 2:13 here and on the other thread you talk about people in Indonesia being too legalistic and say they are wrong for believing faith + works gets you to heaven, contradicting yourself in the matter of minutes. Doesn't sound inspired to me.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness? Or both?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#144696
08/20/12 06:16 AM
08/20/12 06:16 AM
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Charter Member Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Of course they sinned before being perfected. They stand perfected in the Righteousness of Christ, not perfect in themselves.
I don't know, maybe your comprehension of the English language is putting a barrier between us, but I am starting to think you are here to be a distraction!
Then you go and quote Romans 2:13 here and on the other thread you talk about people in Indonesia being too legalistic and say they are wrong for believing faith + works gets you to heaven, contradicting yourself in the matter of minutes. Doesn't sound inspired to me. Are you self a believer in "faith + work" will get you to heaven and have eternal life?
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Re: Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness? Or both?
[Re: James Saptenno]
#144699
08/20/12 02:49 PM
08/20/12 02:49 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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I'm going to call you brother, OK? Brother James, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But I can tell by the way you are presenting this that you have no idea what WORKS are.
Let me illustrate please.
If you say you love your wife, yet sleep with other women, don't your works prove that you're a liar? Can you love someone and betray them?
The works of Judas proved he was a liar. he manipulated the Lord for his own will.
Even though Peter sinned and denied his Lord, his later works of repentance proved he loved the Lord.
Both had sinned but one had the fruit of true repentance.
Now let me ask you, was this a work? Did Peter have to get on his knees and say "I am so sorry Father"? Since nothing good comes from mortal man, then repentance is from God also, which means, if God is motivating you to do something you are working in His Spirit which is motivating you to do it.
If you do not see this as a work then you do not know what works is. But that is the beginning work of repentance, once you are forgiven God leads us to more works.
Paul said in one sentence in 1 Corinthians 4:12 "and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;"
Then in a few sentences later he said in 1 Corinthians 9:6 "Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?"
So which is it, did Paul 'work'? Of course he did, in 1 Corinthians 9:1 he said "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?
This is the kind of work that faith brings brother. Do not confuse working for God with working to try and save ourselves. True works are motivated by the Holy Spirit in faith. Works are NOT trying to earn salvation by keeping the law of God. This is the error that so many in our church have fallen to. But is it right to do away with the correct works to be free of the false works?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness? Or both?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#144719
08/21/12 06:05 AM
08/21/12 06:05 AM
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Charter Member Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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I'm going to call you brother, OK? Brother James, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But I can tell by the way you are presenting this that you have no idea what WORKS are.
Let me illustrate please.
If you say you love your wife, yet sleep with other women, don't your works prove that you're a liar? Can you love someone and betray them?
The works of Judas proved he was a liar. he manipulated the Lord for his own will.
Even though Peter sinned and denied his Lord, his later works of repentance proved he loved the Lord.
Both had sinned but one had the fruit of true repentance.
Now let me ask you, was this a work? Did Peter have to get on his knees and say "I am so sorry Father"? Since nothing good comes from mortal man, then repentance is from God also, which means, if God is motivating you to do something you are working in His Spirit which is motivating you to do it.
If you do not see this as a work then you do not know what works is. But that is the beginning work of repentance, once you are forgiven God leads us to more works.
Paul said in one sentence in 1 Corinthians 4:12 "and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;"
Then in a few sentences later he said in 1 Corinthians 9:6 "Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?"
So which is it, did Paul 'work'? Of course he did, in 1 Corinthians 9:1 he said "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?
This is the kind of work that faith brings brother. Do not confuse working for God with working to try and save ourselves. True works are motivated by the Holy Spirit in faith. Works are NOT trying to earn salvation by keeping the law of God. This is the error that so many in our church have fallen to. But is it right to do away with the correct works to be free of the false works? So, you confirm that Faith + works that saved you?
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Re: Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness? Or both?
[Re: James Saptenno]
#144731
08/21/12 08:12 PM
08/21/12 08:12 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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Let everyone that reads this know, and it is shown by the record that I am in love with the truth. She crieth in the streets and I run after her because she leads me to the groom.
Jeremiah 5:1 English Standard Version (ESV) Jerusalem Refused to Repent
5 Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, look and take note! Search her squares to see if you can find a man, one who does justice and seeks truth, that I may pardon her.
Proverbs 24:7 English Standard Version (ESV) 7 Wisdom is too high for a fool; in the gate he does not open his mouth.
This is the Golden Eastern Gate of Jerusalem where judgment was pronounced, symbolic of the Eastern Gate of the Garden of Eden from which Adam was escorted out of.
I have been given visions of this place of meeting and 'brothers' mock me for repeating it. I love, but have not been loved within the church but by only those who receive the Spirit of truth in devoted love. They seem to come out of no where for brilliant moments in time.
They are my brothers, and God brings them to my side when I need them or they need me or for amazing glorious Sabbaths in worship. To this BROTHERHOOD I offer my life, because of my pledge to Christ Jesus, my savior through Baptism.
If you have ever been here, at the gate, the place of meeting, you receive true forgiveness and true wisdom beyond what others have seen or experienced. This is the spot Jesus took your sins upon His head and died spiritually while physically still alive in Gethsemane. In the exact position of the altar Adam erected outside the gate. The same place the Red heifer was sacrificed. God has shown me this in vision, and it was the most experiential gift I have ever had in the Spirit of forgiveness. Then I found all the biblical and Spirit of Prophecy support as a sign that the vision was from the true God, and still very few will even take the time and pray about it.
The persecution is harder when I am weak and angry, but it is there nonetheless, and this is not on my head.
I truly fear for those who have not experienced watching their sins put on the head of Jesus in the garden. This IS the weapon against sin. The place where the olives where 'beaten' and 'pressed' to make to oil for the Holy Place lamps. This is the place of meeting with God, at the Gate. The Father shows you His love by sending His Son to take your place in being 'Cut off' from Him, and it causes us to hate sin. Jesus shows you His love by accepting your sins upon His record in heaven, so He experiences the hell you would have experienced if you did not repent and was resurrected outside the New Jerusalem in the second death.
Those who are outside at the second resurrection, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, will experience shame and pain equal to their sins in proportion, and they begin to sweat blood as they realize they have been deceived and it is too late. This is the second death and the fires that rain upon them are merciful in extinguishing their pain.
My vision was seeing the moment of Jesus taking all of our sins on, but particularly what my sins were as seen through His eyes. He saw mine and I saw His perspective and the shame was healthy because, He showed me it is not too late for me to let them go.
In the days of the first temple, with the Shekinah Glory of God above the Ark of the Covenant, On the day of atonement, when the priests opened the veil into the Most Holy Place, the glory of the Shekinah presence filled the inner chamber of the Holy Place like an Output coupler in a laser, and that glory shot out the open gate to the east like a shaft of light down the bridge of the Red Heifer and spotlighted the altar of the Red heifer on the top of Mt Olives like a sign to look there.
The top of mount of Olives is where Jesus in human form ascended to heaven. So this shaft of light is symbolic of the not of the earth source of power that connects us to heaven through what happened outside the camp to the east. This is where Jesus died the second death, in Gethsemane, at the foot of the mount, directly between the eastern gate and top of mt olives in the deep ravine called the Kidron Valley or what is also known as the Valley of Jehoshaphat.
Joel 3:9 Proclaim this among the nations: Consecrate for war; stir up the mighty men. Let all the men of war draw near; let them come up. 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears; let the weak say, “I am a warrior.” 11 Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, and gather yourselves there. Bring down your warriors, O Lord. 12 Let the nations stir themselves up and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. 13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Go in, tread, for the winepress is full. The vats overflow, for their evil is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. 16 The Lord roars from Zion, and utters his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth quake. But the Lord is a refuge to his people, a stronghold to the people of Israel.
This is an end time later rain prophecy, will you seek this in truth?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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