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Re: Born again free from sin: True or false?
[Re: Charity]
#145641
09/30/12 04:34 PM
09/30/12 04:34 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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James, Mike, what do you think of this statement?
There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. . . .{SC 64.1}
The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you. {SC 64.2}
No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ. {SC 65.1}
The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image. {SC 65.2} Regarding this passage, one thing is clear in my mind - Sister White is not saying sinning is normal for newborn believers who are abiding in Jesus. Her use of the words . . . 1. Deformity 2. Sinfulness 3. Helplessness 4. Faulty 5. Imperfections 6. Shortcomings 7. Mistakes . . . does not imply they are sinning. Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out in thoughts, words, or deeds. Confessing our sinfulness is not the same thing as sinning. And, bowing down and weeping at the feet of Jesus "because of our shortcomings and mistakes" may or may not refer to post-conversion sinning. She may be referring to repentance deepening over past, pardoned sins. "At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen." {AA 561.2}
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Re: Born again free from sin: True or false?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#145663
10/01/12 02:39 AM
10/01/12 02:39 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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"but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ." {SC 65.1}
This sums it up perfectly.
If we have not seen the beauty and excellence of Christ, then we have not been converted, or born again.
So this is saying that we need to see our deformity in comparison to the beauty of the soul of Jesus in order to converted.
So in essence if we have not had an experience in this, then we have not met Jesus and cannot be saved.
It is after this moment that we can walk in faith, not until. So without this life changing epiphany can we even truly be considered converted Christians. All of the other attributes come after this.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Born again free from sin: True or false?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#145710
10/02/12 03:14 PM
10/02/12 03:14 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Regarding the timing of the death of self, Sister White wrote: Self must die. We find that this is hard; for self dies hard. It is not our work to uphold self. "Without Me," Christ says, "ye can do nothing." {1NL 31.5}
We may have a measure of faith, a knowledge of the theory of truth, but unless self dies, unless we live Christ's life of obedience, our profession is worthless. {RH, August 2, 1906 par. 3}
God wants to put His Spirit upon you, but He cannot do this while you are so full of self. When self dies, you will feel the quickening influence of the Spirit of God. {11MR 288.2}
But not until self dies can Christ live in us. Not until self dies can we possess a faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {OFC 131.5}
The soul is aglow with these grand and elevating themes. Holiness and truth, grace and righteousness, occupy the thoughts. Self dies, and Christ lives in His servants. {CT 341.2}
When self dies, there will be awakened an intense desire for the salvation of others,—a desire which will lead to persevering efforts to do good. {GW92 470.3}
There must be a continual exercise of faith to be in Christ and keep in Christ, abiding by faith in Him. This is a training process, a constant discipline of the mind and heart, that Christ shall work His great work in human hearts. Self, the old natural self, dies, and Christ's will is our will, His way is our way, and the human agent becomes, with heart, mind, and intellect, an instrument in the hands of God to work no more wickedness but the righteousness of Christ. {TMK 55.3}
When they fall upon Christ, their own hereditary and cultivated traits of character are taken away as hindrances to their being partakers of the divine nature. When self dies, then Christ lives in the human agent. He abides in Christ, and Christ lives in him. {YRP 62.2}
When we fall upon the living Rock, our wrong traits of character are taken away as hindrances to perfection of character. When self dies, Christ lives in the human agent. Acquaintance with Christ makes us long to abide in him, and to have him abide in us. {RH, April 25, 1899 par. 9}
When self dies, the peace of Christ will take possession of the soul. . . Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. Then you will think candidly and wisely how to take yourself to the Lord. You will foresee the evils which will come, unless you change by avoiding the cause which produces the effect. {VSS 304.4}
As the increasing glory of Christ is revealed, the human agent will see no glory in himself; for the concealed deformity of his soul is laid bare, and self-esteem and self-glorying are extinguished. Self dies, and Christ lives. {RH, September 18, 1894 par. 3} The passages posted above make it abundantly clear self must die before we can experience rebirth, before Jesus can dwell within us, before we can partake of the divine nature, before we can enjoy the fruits of the Spirit. It is not a slow, gradual death. It is a sudden, immediate, full and complete death that happens after people finish the "patient, protracted process" of conversion. Nevertheless, even after self dies, sinful flesh remains to tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus. She says "every day you are to war against your" "hereditary tendencies to wrong" and "objectionable traits of character" which "will strive for the mastery." Again, having sinful tendencies and sinful traits of character is not the same thing as acting them out in cherished thoughts, or words, or deeds. When subdued and subjected to the higher powers, they do not cause guilt or condemnation.
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Re: Born again free from sin: True or false?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#145714
10/02/12 10:13 PM
10/02/12 10:13 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Mountain Man, Reading all of the quotations you provide is a real blessing, subduing the carnal will and nature. In a way this sums it up: You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. (SC 49) That new heart demands the old heart is removed - in death to self. Thank God that Jesus washes the sins away, because we cannot do that ourselves.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Born again free from sin: True or false?
[Re: Johann]
#145728
10/03/12 06:59 PM
10/03/12 06:59 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Amen, pastor. God is good. Thank you, Jesus. Not everyone agrees, though. Too many good people think believers are born again with self in tact (to be crucified slowly, gradually throughout the rest of their earthly sojourn). Some even believe the "clamors of our fallen nature" (DA 122) counts as sinning for which believers are guilty and condemned (even it they refuse to out the clamors of sinful flesh).
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