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Born again free from sin: True or false? #145584
09/28/12 03:54 PM
09/28/12 03:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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True conviction of sin, real heart sorrow because of wickedness, death to self, the daily overcoming of defects of character, and the new birth—these, represented as old things, Paul says had passed away, and all things had become new. Such a work many know nothing of. They grafted the truth into their natural hearts, and then went on as before, manifesting the same unhappy traits of character. What is now needed is the plain testimony borne in love from lips touched with living fire. {OFC 300.5}

Quote:
One of the strongest evidences that the new birth has taken place is that the new-born soul is not self-centered. {ST, November 30, 1891 par. 1}

The power of the Holy Spirit transforms the entire man. This change constitutes the new birth. {4Red 11.3}

In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then “the righteousness of the law” will “be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:4. And the language of the soul will be: “O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day.” Psalm 119:97. (GC 468)

As we receive divine light, and cooperate with the heavenly intelligences, we are "born again," freed from the defilement of sin by the power of Christ. The mighty power of the Holy Spirit works an entire transformation in the character of the human agent, making him a new creature in Christ Jesus. {FLB 137}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. . . . A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {Mar 237}

Human nature is vile, and man's character must be changed before it can harmonize with the pure and holy in God's immortal kingdom. This transformation is the new birth. If man by faith takes hold of the divine love of God, he becomes a new creature through Christ Jesus. The world is overcome, human nature is subdued, and Satan is vanquished. {2SP 133}

When the prayer is sincerely offered, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me," the voice of the Lord answers, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them." The renewed heart will have no plants of selfishness to cultivate. Pride will be seen in its sinfulness, and will be expelled. {RH, May 5, 1896 par. 5}

True repentance of sin, faith in the merits of Jesus Christ, and baptism into his death, to be raised out of the water to live a new life, are the first steps in the new birth which Christ told Nicodemus he must experience in order to be saved. {YI, February 1, 1874 par. 8}

They feed upon His word, for it is spirit and life. This word kills the natural, earthly nature, and a new life in Christ Jesus is created. The Holy Spirit comes as a Comforter to them. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the mold of the divine similitude. The image of Christ is reproduced in the human agent, and by the transforming efficacy of the grace of Christ he becomes a new creature. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13). This is the new birth. {10MR 166.1}

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. Thousands who claim to be religious are not Christians. {12MR 51}

The new birth is the beginning of a new life, a new shining forth of light because of a change in the character. The old life of selfishness has died, and the Christ-life is revealed. . . God has assured us that it is possible to serve Him in holiness. {17MR 359}

The basis or cause of every right action existing and operating in the renewed heart secures obedience without external or selfish motives. . . In the renewed heart there will be a fixed principle to obey the will of God, because there is a love for what is just, and good, and holy. . . Their fruit is unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. {2T 488}

The truly converted soul will become gentle and condescending. His character will be marked with simplicity. He will be spiritually-minded. Self-exaltation will cease. His affections have entered a new channel. He loves Jesus with the whole heart, and he loves his brethren as the purchase of the blood of Christ. Here is the fruit that will certainly appear in the renewed heart. {RH, October 19, 1886 par. 2}

The heart must be emptied of every defilement, and cleansed for the indwelling of the Spirit. {FLB 333.5}

The latter rain will come, and the blessing of God will fill every soul that is purified from every defilement. It is our work today to yield our souls to Christ, that we may be fitted for the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord--fitted for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.--1SM 191 (1892). {LDE 193.1}

Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214.2}

Today you are to give yourselves to God, that he may make of you vessels unto honor, and meet for his service. Today you are to give yourself to God, that you may be emptied of self, emptied of envy, jealousy, evil-surmising, strife, everything that shall be dishonoring to God. Today you are to have your vessel purified that it may be ready for the heavenly dew, ready for the showers of the latter rain; for the latter rain will come, and the blessing of God will fill every soul that is purified from every defilement. It is our work today to yield our souls to Christ, that we may be fitted for the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord--fitted for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. {RH, March 22, 1892 par. 13}

What kind of vessels are meet for the Master's use? Empty vessels. When we empty the soul of every defilement, we are ready for use. . . . When mind and heart are worked by the Spirit, when self is dead, the truth is capable of constant expansion and new development.--Review and Herald, Feb. 28, 1899. {RC 114.6}

If suspicions and envy and jealousies and evil surmisings are cherished, these will exclude the blessing of God, for Jesus cannot dwell in a heart where these things are cherished. The soul temple must be cleansed of every defilement. {RC 277.2}

Our first work must be personal. The heart must be cleansed from every defilement, and sanctified by the truth. The love of Christ must burn upon the altar of the soul. Then, and then only, can we commend to others the things which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled of the word of life. {BEcho, July 26, 1897 par. 3}

But those who sincerely repent and turn to the Lord, will find in him a personal Saviour. He is able to save to the uttermost all that come unto God by him. He will save you from yourself, from every defilement, from all your foolishness. You are to believe in him, to "trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." When you love Jesus, you will not grieve him by indulging sin in yourself; for you will realize that he came not to save you in your sins, but from your sins. John says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." {RH, April 5, 1892 par. 5}

We must empty the soul temple of every defilement, and let the Spirit of God take full possession of the heart, that the character may be transformed. {RH, April 26, 1892 par. 10}

Jesus came to save the lost, to take them out of their fallen condition, to make them more than conquerors, and to give them a seat upon his throne. O that the soul temple might be cleansed of every defilement. O that we might not offer to God a diseased, defiled offering. An infinite price has been paid to bring us into connection with Christ. Self-indulgence must cease. We must come into right relations with God, and we must be cleansed from all iniquity, and walk worthy of the vocation whereunto we are called. {ST, July 29, 1889 par. 9}

In one way we are thrown upon our own energies; we are to strive earnestly to be zealous and to repent, to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts from every defilement; we are to reach the highest standard, believing that God will help us in our efforts. We must seek if we would find, and seek in faith; we must knock, that the door may be opened unto us. The Bible teaches that everything regarding our salvation depends upon our own course of action. If we perish, the responsibility will rest wholly upon ourselves. If provision has been made, and if we accept God's terms, we may lay hold on eternal life. We must come to Christ in faith, we must be diligent to make our calling and election sure. {ST, June 16, 1890 par. 2}

Christ will come into the heart and abide there if you will but cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. {ST, November 30, 1888 par. 8}

Why delay? Why go on in weakness? Why not cast your soul in all its helplessness upon Christ, and lay hold on the merits of his precious blood? He waits to receive you. He longs to help you. And when the soul temple is cleansed from every defilement, you will have a new and precious experience. {ST, January 6, 1890 par. 6}

Have you the faith that works by love and purifies the soul from every defilement? Can you in word, in practice, in disposition, bear the Bible test of character? Is your influence fragrant? Do you in your association with others in the daily life show that you have been regenerated? {17MR 359.1}

Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Mountain Man] #145588
09/28/12 07:47 PM
09/28/12 07:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. (5T 47)

Quote:
When we are born from above, the same mind will be in us that was in Jesus, the mind that led Him to humble Himself that we might be saved. {DA 330.4}

And when we see that sin in us is striving for the mastery, then we must strive. {HP 263.5}

The Lord wants His own property. When we have given to God soul, body, and spirit; when we have kept appetite under the control of enlightened conscience, and wrestled against every lust, showing that we consider each organ as God's property, intended for His service; when all our affections move in harmony with the Lord's mind, fastening on objects "which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God"--then we have given the Lord His own. {OHC 42.5}

When we render back to God His own, when we wash our robes of character, and make them white in the blood of the Lamb, then we shall be entitled to a celestial crown. {ST, December 15, 1898 par. 3}

When we are forgiven for our sins, when our filthy garments are taken away, then we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling; but we are not left to do the work alone; "for it is God that worketh in you, both to will and to do of his good pleasure." {BEcho, June 1, 1892 par. 4}

When we remove the rubbish from the door of the heart, the Lord will come in and make his abode with us, and we shall have daily a precious story to tell of the favor, love, and mercy of our Heavenly Father. {RH, April 16, 1889 par. 9}

And when we can say from the heart, as did our divine Lord, "I delight to do thy will, O my God; yea, thy law is within my heart," then we are sanctified through the truth. We have the mind that was in Christ, and by faith we have drawn vital force from the source of infinite power and purity. {ST, April 13, 1888 par. 13}

When we possess the inner strength of piety, which animated Jesus Christ, the experience of the great apostle will be ours. Then we can say, "I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." That life will reveal that it is a part of Christ's life. {ST, March 10, 1898 par. 5}

Christ calls upon us to be filled with all the fulness of God. Then we can truly represent the perfection of the Christian religion. . . When we are emptied of self, He will give us His grace to impart to others. . . Let us abide in Christ. Then we all "with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory,"--from character to character. {ST, April 25, 1900 par. 8}

Not until Christ's life is a vitalizing power in our lives can we be strong to resist the temptations that assail us from within and from without. We need to press close to the side of Christ. We need to be sure that we are wearing His yoke of restraint and obedience. Then we shall be safe, because we are on the Lord's side. His truth is in our hearts, and we find His yoke easy and His burden light. {ST, July 9, 1902 par. 7}

When we cast ourselves in our wretchedness wholly upon the mercy of Christ, and feel that unless He saves us we perish; when we yield our own will, our own way, and plead for Jesus to control our will and actions, then we come into a position where we can receive and appreciate pardon and the forgiveness of sin. {13MR 34.2}

When we stand the test of God, in the refining, purifying process, when the furnace fires consume the dross, and the true gold of a purified character appears, then we may say as did Paul, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect; but I follow after. . . . This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" [Philippians 3:12-14]. {16MR 275.2}

The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300)

We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. (5T 47)

But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defective character traits] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein. (RH 10-5-1897)

You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. (SC 49)

In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ has given a definition of true sanctification. He lived a life of holiness. He was an object lesson of what His followers are to be. We are to be crucified with Christ, buried with Him, and then quickened by His Spirit. Then we are filled with His life. (3SM 202)

The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. (DA 172)

The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300)

Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Mountain Man] #145589
09/28/12 08:01 PM
09/28/12 08:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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It's difficult to imagine but there are people who believe rebirth results in believers retaining some of the sinful habits and practices they cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth. What do you think? Based on the passages posted above, are people born again free from sin or full of sin?

PS - please bear in mind, by "free from sin" (Rom 6:18 and 22) Paul did not mean to imply born-again believers forfeit the freedom and ability to sin. Peter describes newborn believers as those who have laid "aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings" (1 Peter 2:1). They are free to sin because they are free from sin. They are "perfect and complete in all the will of God" (Col 4:12). While they are consciously choosing to abide in Jesus, the Holy Spirit empowers them to grow and mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit.

Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Mountain Man] #145601
09/29/12 05:57 AM
09/29/12 05:57 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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You are definitely on track brother,

this information you posted will be in harmony with this inspired input also, it needs to be balanced like you said before.

[Zechariah 4:11-14 quoted.] "These (two branches/witnesses) empty themselves into the golden bowls, which represent the hearts of the living messengers of God, who bear the Word of the Lord to the people in warnings and entreaties. The Word itself must be as represented, the golden oil, emptied from the two olive trees that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. This is the baptism by the Holy Spirit with fire. This will open the soul of unbelievers to conviction. The wants of the soul can be met only by the working of the Holy Spirit of God. Man can of himself do nothing to satisfy the longings and meet the aspirations of the heart (Manuscript 109, 1897). {4BC 1180.1}

There were two baptisms spoken of by John the Baptist just before baptizing Jesus in the Jordan.

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

The baptism of repentance from John is what every single member of the SDA church has begun to go through, to be convicted to be baptized. The Baptism of "fire through the Holy Spirit" is what those who are emptied of self will attain through the Spirit of truth. This baptism is the power of God through His word to convict OTHERS of their sins.

This can happen immediately or in a very short period of time if we allow the conviction to empty us of self. This true baptism can happen before baptism by water or the moment you leave the baptismal font, or on a day you have your feet washed in communion, but it must be accomplished through the aid of the Holy Spirit.

John 16(ESV)
16 “I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. 3 And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you."

“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

The conviction of our own sins is what we must face to be empowered to overcome those sins, then God can work through us to convict others. This is why it is so important to teach new converts the whole truth, so they can be convicted of where they are in error both in sins and doctrines. If they are led by men full of the Holy Spirit this conviction can be as quick as to the Ethiopian baptized by Philip through the Holy Spirit.

This conviction is available through the Holy Spirit the moment you accept Christ, for He testifies of Him. Many people will not allow this spirit of conviction to have reign in their hearts so even at baptism in water they are not truly convicted of their sins, only that they need to be saved.

Only those who have a deep sense of their shame are truly convicted of their sins and what they caused the Son of God.
The great examples given are the two baptisms of Jesus. One in the water, and one in His own blood.

One in Jordan (water) and one in Gethsemane (blood). There is a powerful visual aid in all of this.

1 John 5 (English Standard Version)

Overcoming the World

5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Those who can see the power in this are those who will be ready for the later rain to fall in strength if they overcome their sins through the faith of Jesus.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #145603
09/29/12 07:52 AM
09/29/12 07:52 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Two Baptisms


There were two silver basins in the inner court of the temple for ‘the Feast of Tabernacles’. A silver basin for water, and one for wine, and they joined through a silver pipe. The wine and water mingled together in that pipe that flowed to the Kidron on the east. These both represent the two baptisms of Jesus, the baptism of water at the Jordan, and His baptism of blood in Gethsemane.

1 John 5: 6 "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Just before Jesus was baptized by water in the Jordan, John the baptist said in Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I... He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Then Jesus reveals Himself, and after He came out of His watery mock grave, "the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove upon Him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." Luke 3:22 (ASV)

Three and a half years later; Jesus is in the Garden of Gethsemane...

“The words fall tremblingly from the pale lips of Jesus, "O My Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, Thy will be done." He accepts His baptism of blood that through Him perishing millions may gain everlasting life. He has left the courts of heaven, where all is purity, happiness, and glory, to save the one lost sheep, the one world that has fallen by transgression. And He will not turn from His mission. He will become the propitiation of a race that has willed to sin. The Majesty of heaven was as one bewildered with agony. No human being could endure such suffering; but Christ had contemplated the struggle. He had said to His disciples, "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it is accomplished!" Now is the "hour, and the power of darkness.” Manuscript 42, 1897.

She is Here quoting Luke 12:49. But look at that whole verse including before what is quoted, it amplifies even more of what is being said. Jesus said "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed!” Does this not imply, that the baptism Jesus first had to go through, has something to do with the “FIRE” that every true believer and Adventist Pastor has been praying for? Remember, the law was spoken by God at Sinai and tongues of fire wrote the words on stone, then the disciples had tongues of fire on their foreheads at Pentecost.

It's simple really; the Church cannot be Baptized with the baptism of fire/ Holy Spirit, without the Baptism of blood Jesus went through in The Garden.

In the Service of the Red Heifer they cut the throat first, then flung some of the blood directly from the wound towards the temple to the west seven times, then lit the fire, then collected the ashes to be mixed with clean water and applied to the people for cleansing. Jesus had His baptism of blood in the Garden looking to heaven, begging for support, but getting the wrath. So many bible symbols come together here. The Baptism of fire that John said Jesus would give us, is His baptism of blood in the Garden, literally just down the hill below where the Red Heifer was burned, blood and all. Imagine some of the ashes of His hell mingled with pure water to sprinkle you and your family. It's a powerful metaphor for use in Prayerful righteous imagination. God doesn't mind small particulars of your imagination being off, as long as you are willing to grow and learn not holding on to anything more than His word.

In perfect contrast to His first baptism, when He was baptized in the Garden...

"No traces of His recent agony were visible as Jesus stepped forth to meet His betrayer. Standing in advance of His disciples He said, “Whom seek ye?” They answered, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus replied, “I am He.” As these words were spoken, the angel who had lately ministered to Jesus moved between Him and the mob. A divine light illuminated the Saviour’s face, and a dovelike form overshadowed Him. In the presence of this divine glory, the murderous throng could not stand for a moment. They staggered back. Priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, fell as dead men to the ground. {DA 694.5}

In case you didn't catch it; the pattern is thus.

At Jesus' baptism of water, John tells the thousands of his followers looking for the Messiah that he baptizes with water, but the greater one will baptize with "The Holy Spirit and Fire". And the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus in the form of a dove and the Fathers voice is heard "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".

At His baptism of blood in the garden No one else is there, He's alone until the angel is sent. Then the sign of the dove appears as a token of the acceptance, But the Fathers voice is not heard. Silence.

This is symbolic of what the 144,000 will go through standing before the Father without an intercessor while the demons inhabiting earth are stirred to a frenzy in the battle. They sing the song of the the Lambs experience, which no one else went through. Beyond the martyrs experience. The end time fiery furnace experience.



Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #145605
09/29/12 03:19 PM
09/29/12 03:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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In future, people who experience eleventh hour conversions, will not have years to get prepared for the latter rain. They must be born again ready to receive the latter rain. The same is true now. In fact, it has always been true; that is, when experienced in God's appointed way, rebirth makes people ready to receive the latter rain.

Quote:
Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214.2}

May the Lord help his people to cleanse the soul temple from every defilement, and to maintain such a close connection with him that they may be partakers of the latter rain when it shall be poured out. {RH, July 20, 1886 par. 10}

The latter rain is to fall upon the people of God. A mighty angel is to come down from heaven, and the whole earth is to be lighted with his glory. Are we ready to take part in the glorious work of the third angel? Are our vessels ready to receive the heavenly dew? Have we defilement and sin in the heart? If so, let us cleanse the soul temple, and prepare for the showers of the latter rain. The refreshing from the presence of the Lord will never come to hearts filled with impurity. May God help us to die to self, that Christ, the hope of glory, may be formed within! {RH, April 21, 1891 par. 11}

Today you are to give yourselves to God, that he may make of you vessels unto honor, and meet for his service. Today you are to give yourself to God, that you may be emptied of self, emptied of envy, jealousy, evil-surmising, strife, everything that shall be dishonoring to God. Today you are to have your vessel purified that it may be ready for the heavenly dew, ready for the showers of the latter rain; for the latter rain will come, and the blessing of God will fill every soul that is purified from every defilement. It is our work today to yield our souls to Christ, that we may be fitted for the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord--fitted for the baptism of the Holy {RH, March 22, 1892 par. 13}

People who experience rebirth in God's appointed way are born again ready to receive the latter rain. Jesus does not withhold the Holy Spirit so that people today cannot experience rebirth ready to receive the latter rain. The thief on the cross was born again just as ready to receive the latter rain as was the aged apostle Paul.

Quote:
The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of Man. But unless the former rain has fallen, there will be no life; the green blade will not spring up. Unless the early showers have done their work, the latter rain can bring no seed to perfection. {RH, March 2, 1897 par. 2}

Please note two things - 1) believers must be free from sin to receive the latter rain, and 2) the latter rain brings the seed to perfection. Obviously, the perfection referred to here is above and beyond freedom from sin. People who receive the latter rain are already free from sin, therefore, the perfection they experience after receiving the latter rain is above and beyond freedom from sin.

Quote:
Jacob's history is also an assurance that God will not cast off those who have been deceived and tempted and betrayed into sin, but who have returned unto Him with true repentance. While Satan seeks to destroy this class, God will send His angels to comfort and protect them in the time of peril. The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

Again, since the 144,000 referred to in the passage posted above are already free from sin, have already received the later rain, have already benefited from its perfecting influence, the "earthliness" that is removed during Jacob's Time of Trouble has nothing to do with sin. Obviously, it results in something above and beyond freedom from sin.

Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Mountain Man] #145609
09/29/12 06:29 PM
09/29/12 06:29 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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You are correct, the 'earthliness' that is consumed is not their sins but their connection with earth itself. They are to be shown that the earth in this condition is not their home and not to be held on to.

They are to lose all desire to hold on to this life also. They are led to the conclusion that there is nothing in this world that can hold them, and like Gideon's army do not hold to this life but see that it is a much better thing to lose your life and prosper, than to hold on and lose the future life.

Lot let go of his earthly connections, and this will be the condition of the 144,000 after they have already been perfected in righteousness. They will have to let go of every worldly acquaintance and possession. At first he objected and wanted to try again to save his family and friends, but to the eyes of God it was time to go.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #145612
09/29/12 07:23 PM
09/29/12 07:23 PM
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James, Mike, what do you think of this statement?
Quote:

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. . . .{SC 64.1}

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you. {SC 64.2}

No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ. {SC 65.1}

The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image. {SC 65.2}

Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Charity] #145627
09/30/12 02:20 AM
09/30/12 02:20 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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This is perfectly in line with what God has shown me Brother Mark.

The moment our hearts are touched by the pain we caused Him, when we see our own moral deformity and accept Christ, is when we discover our first love. It is at that exact moment that we are given all the promises of God. At that moment you are perfect in the eyes of God through His Son who has accepted us. Only true faith in the righteousness of Christ allows us to sincerely experience this. If you do not accept that He has forgiven EVERY SIN in your past, then you limit the power of grace to cleanse you.

What He has shown me, as you know, I call the Gethsemane experience. He showed me exactly what I did to His heart, the pain I caused Him, and He showed this to me through His eyes, mixed with His mercy. This caused me to hate what I did to Him and I deeply and mournfully repented.

Every time I have an experience where I am ashamed and shown my sinful condition, I repent. While everyone who claims the name of Jesus has on some level seen the shamefully spotty clothing they are dressed in, Very few people actually allow this level of repentance to take root in their hearts. The foot washing ceremony/ communion is meant for this kind of soul searching and is a sign of our need of the refreshing in the Spirit.

BUT if we were to not feel the pain we caused, and instead denied the stinging influence of the Holy Spirit, this would be doubting that we ever had received this blessing to begin with. This is withdrawing from the Spirit through lack of faith.

Denying that God wants to help us be free of sin is denying the Holy Spirit also. It is one of the most important points to recognize how important it is to God for us to receive forgiveness. He has done everything He could to give us grace and to receive this is faith in action.

It wasn't until Peter saw what He did, when he denied His best friend Jesus three times, that he mournfully repented while laying on the spot Jesus sweat blood in Gethsemane, wishing he would have been there for His brother that night. This caused peter so much pain, but it also created a desire to want to die to himself completely and rely upon His savior to save him.

It is not God's wish that we commit sin, but if we do sin, God can use that situation to cause us to truly repent. But if we wait to repent then we are relying upon our own merits to justify our actions. True repentance comes immediately after the realization of sin.

No one should let themselves be fooled into thinking we cannot come to God right after committing a sin. This is relying upon our own merits. WE MUST come to God immediately after sinning to repent. If we hold back and wait until later we are proving that we do not have the Holy Spirit motivating us, and instead prove we rely upon ourselves.

God is completely willing to forgive us if we sin, but He doesn't want us to forget to FEEL/ empathize for the pain we caused Him, because this is the impetus for true repentance and renewal. That is why we are told to go "outside the gates and bear the reproach He endured". If we in righteous imagination, contemplate what each of our sins did to the Messiah, going to Him in Gethsemane and placing those sins upon His head, then follow Him to the cross while He suffers for those sins, it sure makes it a lot harder to sin next time, let me tell you.

This is the power of the ceremonial law in action today. Every time they sinned they offered sacrifice, making an effort to see what their sins caused the Son of God in their future. If they denied that they sinned they would be put out of the camp permanently. Through repentance they were permitted to remain in the congregation.

Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. 12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. 13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.

I love the quote you supplied because it reveals our need to completely have faith in the atoning blood of Christ. The closer we get to Him, the more we realize our need, and this becomes synergistic, because we know with surety that He is waiting for us to repent so He can wrap His arms of love around us. This makes us want to find EVERY spot or wrinkle so we can be rid of it and stand in the presence of God in the body of Christ, NOW!


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #145630
09/30/12 03:10 AM
09/30/12 03:10 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Again to be perfectly clear...it is not God's will that anyone sin...EVER!

But He deals with us where we are at and does not force us to do His will. He tries to lead us into repentance so we will not fall for temptation and sin.

If we are sincere in our desire to know God, and permit God to touch our hearts, He will immediately accept us and cleans us from ALL unrighteousness. At that moment, all of heaven is at your disposal to keep you from falling. Our walk is tested and proven, and if we fail we have an advocate to restore us to Him, but it is not His will that we fall ever again. Every time we sin we fall.

After being cleansed our faith is tested and where we fail is where our faith in Christ is weak. God permits us to see this so we know where we are, to more fully accept His strength to overcome these sinful thoughts and desires.

GOD DOES NOT USE SIN TO DO HIS WILL! But if we do sin He allows our shame to bring us to Him. This what it means to be broken ON the rock.

When we repent all of our past sins are forgiven unless we hide something away from His searching eyes. But this is not true repentance.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Charity] #145641
09/30/12 04:34 PM
09/30/12 04:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
James, Mike, what do you think of this statement?

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. . . .{SC 64.1}

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you. {SC 64.2}

No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ. {SC 65.1}

The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image. {SC 65.2}

Regarding this passage, one thing is clear in my mind - Sister White is not saying sinning is normal for newborn believers who are abiding in Jesus. Her use of the words . . .

1. Deformity
2. Sinfulness
3. Helplessness
4. Faulty
5. Imperfections
6. Shortcomings
7. Mistakes

. . . does not imply they are sinning. Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out in thoughts, words, or deeds. Confessing our sinfulness is not the same thing as sinning. And, bowing down and weeping at the feet of Jesus "because of our shortcomings and mistakes" may or may not refer to post-conversion sinning. She may be referring to repentance deepening over past, pardoned sins. "At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen." {AA 561.2}

Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Mountain Man] #145663
10/01/12 02:39 AM
10/01/12 02:39 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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"but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ." {SC 65.1}

This sums it up perfectly.

If we have not seen the beauty and excellence of Christ, then we have not been converted, or born again.

So this is saying that we need to see our deformity in comparison to the beauty of the soul of Jesus in order to converted.

So in essence if we have not had an experience in this, then we have not met Jesus and cannot be saved.

It is after this moment that we can walk in faith, not until. So without this life changing epiphany can we even truly be considered converted Christians. All of the other attributes come after this.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #145710
10/02/12 03:14 PM
10/02/12 03:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Regarding the timing of the death of self, Sister White wrote:

Quote:
Self must die. We find that this is hard; for self dies hard. It is not our work to uphold self. "Without Me," Christ says, "ye can do nothing." {1NL 31.5}

We may have a measure of faith, a knowledge of the theory of truth, but unless self dies, unless we live Christ's life of obedience, our profession is worthless. {RH, August 2, 1906 par. 3}

God wants to put His Spirit upon you, but He cannot do this while you are so full of self. When self dies, you will feel the quickening influence of the Spirit of God. {11MR 288.2}

But not until self dies can Christ live in us. Not until self dies can we possess a faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {OFC 131.5}

The soul is aglow with these grand and elevating themes. Holiness and truth, grace and righteousness, occupy the thoughts. Self dies, and Christ lives in His servants. {CT 341.2}

When self dies, there will be awakened an intense desire for the salvation of others,—a desire which will lead to persevering efforts to do good. {GW92 470.3}

There must be a continual exercise of faith to be in Christ and keep in Christ, abiding by faith in Him. This is a training process, a constant discipline of the mind and heart, that Christ shall work His great work in human hearts. Self, the old natural self, dies, and Christ's will is our will, His way is our way, and the human agent becomes, with heart, mind, and intellect, an instrument in the hands of God to work no more wickedness but the righteousness of Christ. {TMK 55.3}

When they fall upon Christ, their own hereditary and cultivated traits of character are taken away as hindrances to their being partakers of the divine nature. When self dies, then Christ lives in the human agent. He abides in Christ, and Christ lives in him. {YRP 62.2}

When we fall upon the living Rock, our wrong traits of character are taken away as hindrances to perfection of character. When self dies, Christ lives in the human agent. Acquaintance with Christ makes us long to abide in him, and to have him abide in us. {RH, April 25, 1899 par. 9}

When self dies, the peace of Christ will take possession of the soul. . . Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. Then you will think candidly and wisely how to take yourself to the Lord. You will foresee the evils which will come, unless you change by avoiding the cause which produces the effect. {VSS 304.4}

As the increasing glory of Christ is revealed, the human agent will see no glory in himself; for the concealed deformity of his soul is laid bare, and self-esteem and self-glorying are extinguished. Self dies, and Christ lives. {RH, September 18, 1894 par. 3}

The passages posted above make it abundantly clear self must die before we can experience rebirth, before Jesus can dwell within us, before we can partake of the divine nature, before we can enjoy the fruits of the Spirit. It is not a slow, gradual death. It is a sudden, immediate, full and complete death that happens after people finish the "patient, protracted process" of conversion.

Nevertheless, even after self dies, sinful flesh remains to tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus. She says "every day you are to war against your" "hereditary tendencies to wrong" and "objectionable traits of character" which "will strive for the mastery." Again, having sinful tendencies and sinful traits of character is not the same thing as acting them out in cherished thoughts, or words, or deeds. When subdued and subjected to the higher powers, they do not cause guilt or condemnation.

Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Mountain Man] #145714
10/02/12 10:13 PM
10/02/12 10:13 PM
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Mountain Man, Reading all of the quotations you provide is a real blessing, subduing the carnal will and nature. In a way this sums it up:

Quote:
You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. (SC 49)


That new heart demands the old heart is removed - in death to self. Thank God that Jesus washes the sins away, because we cannot do that ourselves.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Born again free from sin: True or false? [Re: Johann] #145728
10/03/12 06:59 PM
10/03/12 06:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Amen, pastor. God is good. Thank you, Jesus. Not everyone agrees, though. Too many good people think believers are born again with self in tact (to be crucified slowly, gradually throughout the rest of their earthly sojourn). Some even believe the "clamors of our fallen nature" (DA 122) counts as sinning for which believers are guilty and condemned (even it they refuse to out the clamors of sinful flesh).

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