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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14616
06/19/05 05:54 PM
06/19/05 05:54 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, given your view of things, it's not surprising that you should desire an arbitrary use of authority. It's sort of ironic, but not surprising. The following statement from the Spirit of Prophesy is the most detailed explanation of the destruction of the wicked the Spirit of Prophesy ever gave (at least, I'm not aware of one that's more detailed). It is easily seen that it presents the principles we have been sharing: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences (DA 764).
In addition, the most detailed statement I'm aware
of regarding the wrath of God is "The Destruction of Jerusalem" in which she discusses the principle for an entire chapter! That's obviously too much to quote here, so I'll quote just a small section from the end of the chapter:
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty (GC 35, 36).
Finally there is the statement from DA 108 which says that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, destroys the wicked. You've never dealt with this statement, which clearly enunciates that points we've been sharing. God does one thing, and that one thing results in life to one group, and death to another.
As Kevin H. points out, this view has always been present within Adventism. It's presented in the post "God is Love" which was written in the 19th century by an SDA co-worker of EGW.
So I don't know what you expect the moderators to do. Should they strike down those who have different positions than they do on:
1) Christ's human nature.
2) The possibility of completely overcoming sin.
3) Whether we can hasten Christ's coming.
etc. etc. Number 3 is is good one to consider. Here's what EGW writes:
quote:
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.
It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). (COL 69)
You don't believe the underlined part, because you have the idea that the time of Christ's coming is foreordained by God. So should you be kicked off the Maritime forum?
If the Admins were to apply brute force to maintain their personal views, what kind of forum would it be? No, forturnately they are respecting the freedom of those who post, as long as posting is within the context of being respectful and not openly hostile to SDA beliefs, which is appropriate.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14617
06/19/05 10:12 PM
06/19/05 10:12 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Here's a statement that deals directly with the punishment and destruction of the unsaved at the end of time:
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. God's entire universe was clean, and the great controversy was forever ended. Wherever we looked, everything upon which the eye rested was beautiful and holy. And all the redeemed host, old and young, great and small, cast their glittering crowns at the feet of their Redeemer, and prostrated themselves in adoration before Him, and worshiped Him that liveth forever and ever. The beautiful new earth, with all its glory, was the eternal inheritance of the saints. The kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was then given to the saints of the Most High, who were to possess it forever, even forever and ever. {EW 295.1}
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14618
06/19/05 10:37 PM
06/19/05 10:37 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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It seems this should be on the "destruction of the wicked" topic.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14619
06/20/05 05:59 AM
06/20/05 05:59 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Pardon me, John, for responding in the wrong place (should be in the destruction of the wicked topic), but responding to MM's quotes, I don't understand why preference would be given for things written 50 years previous to later statements. In commenting on the same visions, EGW wrote: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. (DA 764)
Here she is explaining what the vision means which she had received so many years earlier. It's clear that this language is not symbolic. It is not "I saw," but a clear explanation of the principles involved in the vision.
Either this statement which I've quoted above is explaining how her vision should be understood, or , in addition to a schizophrenic God, we have a schizophrenice Ellen White to deal with as well.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14620
06/20/05 12:32 PM
06/20/05 12:32 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Some say that God’s hatred of sin is subordinate to His love for us - that is, “God hates sin because sin makes us suffer”. But God does not hate sin just because of that. God hates sin because sin is the antithesis of His character. When the Bible says that sin is the transgression of the law, it is saying that sin is the opposite of God’s character, because the law is just a transcript of His character. The law is unchangeable because God’s character is unchangeable. God and sin cannot coexist. God reproves sin, He hates sin, He is antipathetic to sin, He must destroy sin.
Thus, God’s hatred of sin and His love for us are two different aspects of His character, that with the entrance of sin were brought into a conflict. God’s character is wrath against sin, but this wrath against sin would kill us. On the other hand, God’s love for us required Him to save us. But God cannot save us contradicting Himself and denying Himself. The law which He must satisfy is that of His own being. Therefore, in Christ God directed towards Himself, and absorbed in Himself, His own wrath against sin, so that we might live. In fact, thinking better, you are correct in saying that God did not kill Christ - a better form of expressing what happened is that God killed Himself in the person of His Son, so that He could manifest at the same time both His wrath against evil and His love for us.
"God so loved the world that He gave Himself in Christ to the world to bear the penalty of man's transgression. God suffered with His Son, as the divine Being alone could suffer, in order that the world might become reconciled to Him." {AG 161.5}
It is clear that this is from one perspective. From the other it is clear that we killed Christ, because it was we who sinned. If we hadn't sinned He wouldn't have needed to die.
[ June 20, 2005, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14621
06/20/05 12:53 PM
06/20/05 12:53 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Ai, ai, aaaai, ai, ai! What a negative image!
Tom, this is not a negative image! It is in mercy to the sinner that God deprives him of existence. He is a curse not only to others, but to himself. These are just plain words - God deprives the sinner of his existence; He does not deliver him up for someone else to deprive him of his existence. It is painful for God to do that, but He has no other alternative.
"A great price has been paid for the redemption of man, and none who are untruthful, impure, or unrighteous can enter the kingdom of heaven. If men do not make Christ their personal Saviour, and become true and pure and holy, there is only one course for the Lord to pursue. He must destroy the sinner, for evil natures cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Thus it is that sin, if not destroyed, will destroy the sinner, just as Satan designed it should." {16MR 273.3}
"Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy." {GC 544.2}
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14622
06/21/05 03:34 AM
06/21/05 03:34 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Hmmmmmm....I think it's best to read fuller in the context of your quote, there, Roseangela:
"He must destroy the sinner, for evil natures cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Thus it is that sin, if not destroyed, will destroy the sinner, just as Satan designed it should." {16MR 273.3}
So sin does kill, after all! And the wage payer is the designer, Satan. Satan knows that any exposure to God's glory while still in rebellion equals destruction.
Let's look further...
"As God made man, he was perfect, reflecting the moral image of God. He was left free to choose good or evil. If he should decide to choose the evil, he must have the evil. ... {16MR 273.4}
Sounds like man choosing sin, death, not going to heaven to me, NOT a court order as much as cause and effect.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14623
06/21/05 03:47 AM
06/21/05 03:47 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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What I was reacting to as the negative image was comparing the light of the glory of God to poisinous gas. Clearly the light of the glory of God is a good thing, whereas poisonous gas would be bad. That the wicked are destroyed by good is a key point. That which gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked. Evil is overcome by good, not by force.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14624
06/21/05 03:52 AM
06/21/05 03:52 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Evil is overcome by good!
Amen.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14625
06/20/05 04:27 PM
06/20/05 04:27 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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If the glory of God accounts for the fire that destroys the wicked in the lake of fire - then what accounts for the death of Jesus on the cross? And, in what way is God innocent of the death of the wicked since it is His glory that kills them? If it is the glory of God that kills the wicked how is it that they are able to live long enough in His presence, without imploding, to be judged and sentenced at the Great White throne? Why are there no examples of the glory of God killing anyone whereas there are plenty of examples of God using fire to destroy sinners?
BTW, here is the same thought repeated in the 1911 Edition of the GC (just 4 years before she died):
GC 673
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
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