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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147182
11/20/12 03:37 AM
11/20/12 03:37 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Did Jesus die the death of a sinner? Did God execute Jesus? The destruction of Jerusalem is an example, "Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened in unbelief and rebellion, and hastening on to meet the retributive judgments of God.{GC 22.1} How did God destroy Jerusalem?

The idea that Jesus and Jerusalem are examples of how God will execute justice (punish resurrected sinners) implies He will crucify them and/or allow soldiers to kill them. What do you believe it means?
Did Jesus die of crucifixion? No. So that one is out. So what killed Him? Sin.

The example of Jerusalem is as quoted, God's "retributive justice", and how was God involved? He removed His hand of protection. "God destroys no man {COL 84.4}". Is that not clear? it is sin that destroys, "sin, when full grown, brings forth death", James 1:15. It is sin that destroys the sinner.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147185
11/20/12 02:54 PM
11/20/12 02:54 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Yes, the plan of redemption encompasses physical ailments, but that is a far cry from saying that Jesus died to heal your dog's cancer.

Are you saying that if Jesus did not come and die on the cross, He would not have been able to heal a broken leg? Or a palsied hand? Or a broken neck?

The sinner could not come in his own person, with his guilt upon him, and with no greater merit than he possessed in himself. Christ alone could open the way, by making an offering equal to the demands of the divine law. {RH, December 17, 1872 par. 8}

The offering was designed to meet the demands of the divine law. Those demands are not physical in nature. Yes, physical ailments will be fixed, but that's not THE problem to be fixed.

I'm reminded of the debates I've had with people who claim that Jesus died in order to cure roses of their thorns and other such damage that sin has caused our planet.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
Yes, Jesus dies for our sins. Yes, Jesus died so we can meet the demands of the law. The demands of the law have not changed, and can not be changed. Thus, there is nothing legal that can satisfy the law. "The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. {DA 762.2}" There is nothing legal that solves this issue. Man must be restored, healed, or man will not meet the demands of the law. "But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}". Salvation requires a total transformation, not a legal solution (which does not exist).

You are not reading your own quote. You say there is no legal problem or solution, though she points out both in your quote. She says, "More than this," then she talks about God healing us. You see that clearly. What you miss completely is the "this" that she just explained, because you are so stuck on the "more" part. You are running for the end zone before you have secured the ball. I bolded it to help everyone see.

Last edited by asygo; 11/20/12 02:55 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147189
11/20/12 04:25 PM
11/20/12 04:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Did Jesus die of crucifixion? No. So that one is out. So what killed Him? Sin. The example of Jerusalem is as quoted, God's "retributive justice", and how was God involved? He removed His hand of protection. "God destroys no man {COL 84.4}". Is that not clear? it is sin that destroys, "sin, when full grown, brings forth death", James 1:15. It is sin that destroys the sinner.

Please address the following post:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
You see God as the executioner. I see the results as intrinsic. The "according to their deeds" is as cause and effect.

Please explain the following insights:

1. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law.
2. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor.
3. The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them.
4. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary.

Also, please explain each sentence in the following paragraph. And, in particular, point out which ones support the idea hellfire and brimstone is intrinsic, cause and effect. Thank you.

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
PS - Please explain each insight and each sentence. Please do not skip over any. Thank you.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147190
11/20/12 06:35 PM
11/20/12 06:35 PM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Yes, Jesus dies for our sins. Yes, Jesus died so we can meet the demands of the law.

One more very important thing. Look at what meets the demands of the law:

The sinner could not come in his own person, with his guilt upon him, and with no greater merit than he possessed in himself. Christ alone could open the way, by making an offering equal to the demands of the divine law. {RH, December 17, 1872 par. 8}

It's the offering that meets the demands of the law, not you, healed or not. Even if you were completely healed, you still would not be worth enough to meet the demands of the law.

And lest we miss a fundamental truth: the law has demands, i.e. legal requirements. Hence, a legal solution is needed.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147191
11/20/12 07:42 PM
11/20/12 07:42 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: MM
Please address the following post:
Will it change anything? Could you please address this: is God's law 1) precriptive, 2) proscriptive, or 3) descriptive?


1. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law.
What is God's wrath? See Romans 1

2. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor.
Yes, see Jesus and Him crucified

3. The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them.
See Isaiah 33:14-15

4. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary.
Absolutely. And at the cross, God did not touch His Son.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147192
11/20/12 08:14 PM
11/20/12 08:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Could you please address this: is God's law 1) precriptive, 2) proscriptive, or 3) descriptive?

The following was posted in response to the first time you asked this question:

Quote:
A: Let me ask this question: is God's Law proscriptive, prescriptive, or descriptive?

M: The law is a transcript of God's character. It defines righteousness. It prohibits sinning. It condemns sinning and sinners. It demands death. It points sinners to Jesus as their only hope of pardon and salvation.

Why are you asking this question?

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147193
11/20/12 08:20 PM
11/20/12 08:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
PS - I don't understand how your response explains the four sentences posted above. And you didn't explain each sentence in the paragraph posted above. What does "execute justice" and "execute judgment" mean? Finally, if suffering and first death satisfy the demands of law and justice, what is the purpose of the second resurrection and second death?

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147197
11/20/12 09:38 PM
11/20/12 09:38 PM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Are you saying that if Jesus did not come and die on the cross, He would not have been able to heal a broken leg? Or a palsied hand? Or a broken neck?
The physical ailments are a consequence of sin. Are you saying they are not? A dog getting cancer is a consequence of sin. Are you saying it is not?

Be careful. You are conflating the consequence with the cause. The cure for canine cancer does not require Christ's crucifixion.

Originally Posted By: APL
There is however a much deeper issue in how I understand sin, and that is how deeply it is embedded in the human organism. How to remove sin, and keep you, you, is not a trivial problem. And it tested the Godhead.

While I'm sure that sin causes genetic damage, I'm pretty sure that sin is not in the genes. Sin, though it has physical manifestations, is a moral issue.

And when sin is removed, you will not be you anymore, and the angels will be glad. When man was created in God's image, his fundamental characteristic was love, as God's is. But transgression replaced love with selfishness, and the loving Adam became the accusing Adam. As that selfishness is replaced by godly love, the change - conversion - is so drastic that it is likened to death and rebirth. You can still be recognized, but it will be a whole new you. That's what Jesus died to provide.

The genetic code and other physical damage? If God can reconstruct a person from 6000 year old dust, I'm pretty sure genetic manipulation will be child's play.

BTW, I covered our need to change from the inside in my sermon last Sabbath. I'll upload the audio or video when I figure out the technical issues.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147200
11/20/12 10:39 PM
11/20/12 10:39 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
asygo - You are "pretty sure sin is not inherited". If it is not inherited, then are you born perfect? Romans 5:12, sin entered the world by one man, and death by sin, thus death passed to all men. Well, how is this death passed to all men? It has to be inherited, otherwise, everyone is perfect when they are born. But they are not perfect.

You claimed that "when sin is removed, you will not be you anymore". Then who will you be? Will we recognize you in heaven? Of course. You will be you. Will you have any tendency to evil? No more.

Animals - what causes a dog to get cancer? Sin. YES or NO? If sin is just some thought in the mind, then how does it affect the "whole creation" Romans 8:22-23? That is because sin is real, and it is physical, and if affects all living things.

A few EGW quotes on sin and inheritance. I have nearly 70 pages of these. It is ubiquitous in her writings. Yet, if you do not have gene glasses on, you will never see it.
Originally Posted By: EGW/various
By inheritance and example the sons become partakers of the father's sin. Wrong tendencies, perverted appetites, and debased morals, as well as physical disease and degeneracy, are transmitted as a legacy from father to son, to the third and fourth generation. This fearful truth should have a solemn power to restrain men from following a course of sin. {PP 306.3}

Parents leave maladies as a legacy to their children. As a rule, every intemperate man who rears children transmits his inclinations and evil tendencies to his offspring; he gives them disease from his own inflamed and corrupted blood. Licentiousness, disease, and imbecility are transmitted as an inheritance of woe from father to son and from generation to generation, and this brings anguish and suffering into the world, and is no less than a repetition of the fall of man. {4T 30.1}

Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. . . . {CH 440.1}

But it is not an easy matter to overcome hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {4MR 383.3}

They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul from all its hereditary and cultivated imperfections.--6T 238 (1900). {1MCP 146.3}

Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. --COL 331 (1900). {2MCP 546.1}

The whole heart must be yielded to God, or the change can never be wrought in us by which we are to be restored to His likeness. By nature we are alienated from God. The Holy Spirit describes our condition in such words as these: "Dead in trespasses and sins;" "the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;" "no soundness in it." We are held fast in the snare of Satan, "taken captive by him at his will." Ephesians 2:1; Isaiah 1:5, 6; 2 Timothy 2:26. God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {SC 43.2}
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. {1SM 256.1}

Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when He came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon Him, He was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed.--The Review and Herald, July 28, 1874.

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. {GC 569.1}

Selfishness is inwrought in our very being. It has come to us as an inheritance, and has been cherished by many as a precious treasure. {HS 138.7}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147205
11/21/12 03:27 AM
11/21/12 03:27 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

You misquoted Arnold. As a result, I can agree with both of you and do not find the main points from either of you to be erroneous. Arnold did not say he didn't believe in inherited sin. He said he didn't believe it was in the genes.

Now, consider this: if sin were "inherited" by beings passed along through the genetic code (DNA), then how could Mrs. White possibly hope to cause us to believe we could "overcome hereditary" imperfections? Can one do something to change his or her genes?

I doubt you would think so either--which is why I think you'll end up agreeing with Arnold just as I do.

The manner of "inheritance" is not so much by the "genes" as by the "prenatal influence," i.e. "experience." We are born into sin simply because we have imperfect parents, and their influence upon us begins long before our birth. The genes themselves have weakened on account of sin, but to say that we "have sin" in our genes would open up a whole can of worms, such as Jesus also having been a sinner, for He inherited our weakened genetics too.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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