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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147752
12/01/12 01:41 AM
12/01/12 01:41 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
You see, it's really untenable to say that sin is in the genes. The marks of sin will be manifest in the genes, sure. But sin itself is not in the genes. Sin is a spiritual matter.
Does sin cause disease in humans and animals? Yes or No. If no, please explain how come animals have sickness and disease. If yes, please explain how a "spiritual matter" causes sickness and disease in all life.

Perhaps we need to look into how closely man's condition is tied to the rest of the planet. Could it be that there is a vital, but still unknown, link that caused the entire planet to fall when Adam and Eve fell? Or maybe a cursed planet, with its dangerous animals and difficult-to-maintain foliage, is exactly what fallen man needs in order to regain his lost glory, so that's what God gave him? There may be truths out there that we haven't yet discovered. Hmmmm...


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147761
12/01/12 04:32 AM
12/01/12 04:32 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
APL,

I answer your questions to make sure you know what I am saying, whether we agree or not. How about returning the favor? I'm waiting for a response to post #147651 (11/28/12 10:50 AM) quoted below:

Originally Posted By: asygo
asygo: I asked for yes or no, and you give a long answer that gave neither yes nor no.
Eagerly awaiting your reply.
I answered this. Enoch needed more that Jesus' death so the answer is not yes or no. He needed Jesus death and life. If Christ was not raised, then the gospel would be moot. Enoch is saved the same way all of us are saved, but Jesus death and life. It was asked how this could be work given that Christ had not yet died. This would be limiting God to time. Something we have a hard time grasping.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147762
12/01/12 04:44 AM
12/01/12 04:44 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
2) "A depraved nature is a type of fallen nature that suffers from moral damage." So a depraved nature is a subset of our fallen nature? Is that what you are saying?

Yes.

Originally Posted By: APL
Is there a "soul" which is separate from the body? No. Man is a whole. The mind is intimately dependent on the body.

No, there is no soul which is separate from the body. However, we can be perfect even though our bodies are still damaged. Don't you agree?

Human nature is composed of three aspects: physical, mental, moral. Damage to any aspect = fallen. Damage to the moral = depraved. It is possible to be fallen but not depraved.

Originally Posted By: APL
Hereditary weakness - this can be nothing less that the genome. It has to be. And there is abundant science to back this up.

You have great faith in science. I know enough science to know that it cannot be completely trusted. It wasn't that long ago when all scientists believed that 186,000 mph + 186,000 mph = 372,000 mph. We now know that isn't quite true. Thousands of years of scientific knowledge tossed aside by a clerk at a patent office.

Just because something is hereditary doesn't mean it's the genome.

Weakness is hereditary.
The genome is hereditary.
Therefore, weakness is in the genome.


The logic is bad.
Where exactly is the bad logic? Please tell me how we inherit traits from our father that are not in the genome. I'm not speaking about culture. There is education, but this is what EGW calls "cultivated" habits. She is clear and I agree, there are inherited and cultivated tendancies to sin. What does a child receive from his father that is not culture? He/She receives 23 chromosomes in a protein cap. No cell nucleus, no cytoplasm, no cellular organelles. 23 chromosomes, that's it. So, how else do we inherit traits? Please explain how heredity is not genetic.

  • It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}

Can you plainly say that EGW it not talking about genetics in this quote? If she is not talking about genetics, please identify what she is talking about. I anxiously await your reply.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147763
12/01/12 04:45 AM
12/01/12 04:45 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
You see, it's really untenable to say that sin is in the genes. The marks of sin will be manifest in the genes, sure. But sin itself is not in the genes. Sin is a spiritual matter.
Does sin cause disease in humans and animals? Yes or No. If no, please explain how come animals have sickness and disease. If yes, please explain how a "spiritual matter" causes sickness and disease in all life.

Perhaps we need to look into how closely man's condition is tied to the rest of the planet. Could it be that there is a vital, but still unknown, link that caused the entire planet to fall when Adam and Eve fell? Or maybe a cursed planet, with its dangerous animals and difficult-to-maintain foliage, is exactly what fallen man needs in order to regain his lost glory, so that's what God gave him? There may be truths out there that we haven't yet discovered. Hmmmm...
Or maybe we are blind to what is right in front of our eyes.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147764
12/01/12 06:12 AM
12/01/12 06:12 AM
APL  Offline
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Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Hence, while dogs and cacti bear the marks of sin, they do not sin. And Jesus did not die to redeem them.
So, a lion that devours a man is not evil?

Hey, I thought you didn't like it when I limited your limited your argument from "nature" to "moral nature" (see post #147036 - 11/16/12 03:09 PM). "Do unto others..." Jesus said.

Is a bullet that fatally wounds a man committing a sin? Is it evil?

How about the cactus that pierces a man's hand, leading to an infection? Or his eye, leading to blindness?
The fallen world is a world full of sin. Did Got create the cactus with thorns? No. The thorns are the result of "Satan's ingenious methods of amalgamation". This quote of EGW is talking genetic engineering: DNA manipulation.
  • Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}

How are thorns and are transmitted as an inheritance - genetics. It is really that hard to think that we receive tenancies to evil by genetics? After all, we are flesh and blood, ALL of which is coded in our DNA. The DNA is a fantastic information storage and transfer system. God has written his Law on every nerve, muscle and fiber of our being, quoting EGW. And again EGW, man was amalgamating man and beast, "genetic engineering", which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147773
12/01/12 02:34 PM
12/01/12 02:34 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
APL,

I answer your questions to make sure you know what I am saying, whether we agree or not. How about returning the favor? I'm waiting for a response to post #147651 (11/28/12 10:50 AM) quoted below:

Originally Posted By: asygo
asygo: I asked for yes or no, and you give a long answer that gave neither yes nor no.
Eagerly awaiting your reply.
I answered this. Enoch needed more that Jesus' death so the answer is not yes or no. He needed Jesus death and life. If Christ was not raised, then the gospel would be moot. Enoch is saved the same way all of us are saved, but Jesus death and life. It was asked how this could be work given that Christ had not yet died. This would be limiting God to time. Something we have a hard time grasping.

Please read my post again. That was not my question this time.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147777
12/01/12 05:04 PM
12/01/12 05:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Does any of this make any difference when we "visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction"?

A: Depends what you mean. Through mortal eyes, it all looks the same. When abiding in Jesus, the fleshly lusts which war against the soul are overridden by His Spirit. But through immortal eyes, which can read the heart, the evils in the heart are as clear as the outward appearance.

So, while abiding in Jesus, good fruit and the evils of the heart combine?

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147782
12/01/12 08:56 PM
12/01/12 08:56 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Originally Posted By: APL
This is a HEALING model, not a legal model. Isaiah 53:3-4 nails it, as quoted by Matthew 8:17. Isaiah 53 also contains the Bible definition of Grace, in verse 11. (compare Isaiah 53:11 with Titus 3:5-7) Grace is not a legal pardon, but the healing of a knowledgeable physician.

After man sinned, the problem was both a relational (or healing) one and a legal one. God has always been willing to forgive man, but, in order to do so, God had two problems:
1- Leading man to repentance, and
2- Finding a way to forgive man without sacrificing the honor of His law
The cross accomplished both objectives.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #147785
12/01/12 10:42 PM
12/01/12 10:42 PM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,443
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: APL
This is a HEALING model, not a legal model. Isaiah 53:3-4 nails it, as quoted by Matthew 8:17. Isaiah 53 also contains the Bible definition of Grace, in verse 11. (compare Isaiah 53:11 with Titus 3:5-7) Grace is not a legal pardon, but the healing of a knowledgeable physician.

After man sinned, the problem was both a relational (or healing) one and a legal one. God has always been willing to forgive man, but, in order to do so, God had two problems:
1- Leading man to repentance, and
2- Finding a way to forgive man without sacrificing the honor of His law
The cross accomplished both objectives.


Exactly!
Any "model" that tries to separate the two is a distortion.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #147787
12/01/12 11:09 PM
12/01/12 11:09 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: APL
This is a HEALING model, not a legal model. Isaiah 53:3-4 nails it, as quoted by Matthew 8:17. Isaiah 53 also contains the Bible definition of Grace, in verse 11. (compare Isaiah 53:11 with Titus 3:5-7) Grace is not a legal pardon, but the healing of a knowledgeable physician.

After man sinned, the problem was both a relational (or healing) one and a legal one. God has always been willing to forgive man, but, in order to do so, God had two problems:
1- Leading man to repentance, and
2- Finding a way to forgive man without sacrificing the honor of His law
The cross accomplished both objectives.
I do not equate the healing with the relationship as you appear to do. They are separate. Sin is not merely a broken relationship. It is true, that Romans 2:4 ... the goodness of God leads you to repentance... There is reconciliation at the cross, Romans 5:10 ... we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son ... We are reconciled in that we see that God is not the executioner.

You point #2 is interesting in that you say God has always been willing to forgive, but somehow had to find a way to forgive? Again in this thread, there are 2 kinds of forgiveness in the NT, Charizomai, which is the typical kind of forgiveness we thing of, that that is God not holding anything against us. And Aphiemi - which is what God does in us, as in 1 John 1:9.

God did have to uphold His law. He did this at the cross, where He showed His son publicly dying, showing what the wages of sin is. And the reason we are saved is not because we are simply legally forgiven, it is because we are transformed. God and fix the problem of sin. It is real, and physical. EGW in the book Steps to Christ, Chapter 5, explains that we need a total transformation of the whole nature. Without that transformation, there is no salvation.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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