I'm not totally sure what to make of that passage in relation to this subject, Thomasso I will leave it for others. I have some ideas, but not fully mature in my mind as of yet.

In the mean time, here is a second witness. Please read carefully, as it can easily be misunderstood:

As with Saul, so with the entire nation of Israel. Centuries of loving appeals had been spurned, the prophets had been persecuted and, in some cases, martyred. Eventually, the Son of God Himself, came with a personal message from the Father. But they rejected Him even more emphatically, underscoring the intensity of their feelings by seeking nothing less than the most torturous and humiliating death for Him that they could find.

The time came when Christ recognized that they had passed the point of no return. What did He say and do? He declared that Jerusalem was beyond hope, and then, instead of launching fiery balls of destruction upon the city, He quietly left them to their fate. Again, He did not do this because He wanted to, but because there was nothing else He could do that was consistent with His character of love. Here are His sad words.

"0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:37-39.

For the same reasons, and in harmony with the same principles, God left Israel exactly as He had left Saul. Thus was removed from them the only effective defence from their many enemies. For centuries the devil had thirsted for the blood of the entire nation. Knowing that he could not touch them whilever the protection of God was about them, and knowing that while they were obedient it would always be there, he laboured with terrible success to lead them into disobedience.

So the time came when the Jews had caused God's protection to be withdrawn from them, and there was nothing to shield them from disaster. It came with ferocious savagery upon their unprotected heads. The full truth of this is clearly expressed in the following record.

"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet, '0 Israel; thou hast destroyed thyself;' 'for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.' Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.
"We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long- suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin, and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." The Great Controversy, 35, 36.

God's actions in the destruction of Jerusalem are identical to His dealings with King Saul. The only difference in the two accounts is that in the fall of Jerusalem, we have a much more detailed account of what the Lord did. It is made transparently clear that they had not fallen by God's hand but by their own iniquity.

Of particular value is the reference made to the common interpretation of what was done there. "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God." in other words, this is the way in which most people view God's actions in this incident: --

"With loving appeals the Lord seeks to woo and to win until the time comes when His patience is exhausted. Then, having passed judgment upon them, He personally decides what form of punishment He will send. Will it be a fearful earthquake, a fire, a volcanic eruption, or pestilence, or shall He send their enemies among them? In the case of Jerusalem, God decided that He would send the Romans. Having made this decree, He called them to the terrible office of being the personal executioners of His vengeance on the Jews."

That is the view most people have of the judgments on the Jews in A.D. 70. This is the interpretation which comes of thinking that God's behaviour is the same as man's, and of defining Bible words according to dictionary meanings. While these methods are employed, it is impossible to come to any other conclusion.

When the statement is made, "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God, . . ." there is no direct evaluation in the sentence itself attesting to its being a correct or incorrect assessment of God's works. However, there is the inference that it is not right in that it is rated as being the more commonly held representation.

Knowing that the majority are deluded in this sphere, it is correct to assess this as an incorrect evaluation. This is confirmed by the next sentence which directly charges it with being a device of Satanic origin designed to shift the blame from the devil to God. “It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work."

Fixed emphasis to avoid confusion.

[ July 01, 2005, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]

Well written, Phil. Did you write this?

quote:

---

"With loving appeals the Lord seeks to woo and to win until the time comes when His patience is exhausted. Then, having passed judgment upon them, He personally decides what form of punishment He will send. Will it be a fearful earthquake, a fire, a volcanic eruption, or pestilence, or shall He send their enemies among them? In the case of Jerusalem, God decided that He would send the Romans. Having made this decree, He called them to the terrible office of being the personal executioners of His vengeance on the Jews."

---

If Satan presents his own work as God's, how do we know when it is Satan acting and when it is God?

Another bible passage that would seem quite straithforward, unless ofcourse you are right and it must be reinterpreted...

2 Peter 2

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Thomas Please, my friend; one mega-disaster at a time. I promised you we will get to the Flood and S&G, but let's see if we agree on the paradoxes of Saul's death and the destruction of Jerusalem.

Do you see the way it is written seems very mismatched?
If so, why would that be?
Is God a bad Inspirer?
Are the prophets bad listeners?
Or was there a good reason He had it written that way, for us, here at the End of Time?

If we confront every major disaster in history in a light and and quick manner (which I'm not saying you are; you are very kind in your researchings) then we will end up learning very little but feeling that we have. We will just be spouting opinions. We can do that on other forums, ad nausem.

Oh my! Sorry Tom that's not EGW, (I always add her source references) and it being italicised may have made it look that way,(since the GC quote was too) but I had no other way of emphasising it. I will go back and make it normal text.

I agree that God takes credit for killing someone when the natural or evil-driven sequence of events results in their death. In basic principle, anyway. He could have stepped in and prevented Saul's death miraculously; but instead, let matters continue to their uninterrupted conclusion.

I think that any time God withdraws his direct protection, evil swarms into the vacuum, for it's agents and miasma seem to be everywhere present since they were cast down to this planet, and this one only. It's true that Satan uses cunning strategy in his guiding of nature, politics, military developments, so that this is not always easy to follow. But seems Satan and evil can hardly hold back if God merely lifts his protective hand over some individual or some group. So, God takes some credit for the evil being here, only because He chose to let evil take its course as a demonstration to the universe. He could have blotted out Lucifer and the first hint of rebellion, but He didn't. So, in that way he takes it on His own shoulders.

But for those who are honest at heart, going into the complex cause-and-effect sequence clears God of fault and puts the blame where it really belongs..on Satan.

I think that is fairly nicely said Restin, except instead of "blame" I would say "real cause".

Whether God uses holy angels, evil angels, humans, disasters, disease, or whatever - God is in control, therefore, all the glory and praise belongs to Him. All is done according to God's plan and permission. Nothing is accidental or natural law. God orchestrates everything that happens.

Psalm
78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

MM Yes...you've quoted these verses many times, and off-handedly avoided the discussing of the topic, as is your right. Pronouncements and discussion are not the same thing.

Can you not see that the written Word looks like it is saying two different things?

Did God kill Saul, or did He take the "wrap"?
Did God whisper to pagan Roman soldiers, "Now I want you do go and kill and rape those evil Jews and burn My Temple to the ground!"

Your "God controls everything" idea sounds like none of has free-will after all. Perhaps Calvinism is right and Adventism is wrong to you?Do you see God as a Puppet Master?

Does He make you do evil things and good things?

Can you see a difference between His knowing everything and His manipulating everything?

And most importantly; will you answer any these questions directly?????

Phil, I was merely agreeing with Restin and John. Yes, God is in control. Nothing happens without His permission, including the Romans beating and nailing Jesus to the cross. God owns the credit for everything that happens on earth and in heaven. When King Saul fell upon his sword it was God who was in control of the consequences. Again, we manage the choices, but God manages the consequences. When Satan rebelled in heaven, God assumed the responsibility for the outcome of the great controversy.

When God influences angels or humans to do good (i.e. to help others in need) or to do evil (i.e. to punish or kill wrong doers) it is for a higher purpose. Do they have a choice? Can they choose not to obey God? I suppose technically they do, but in reality they end up obeying God's will and desire. For example, Cyrus fulfilled his God ordained destiny, but not without a great deal of effort on the part of Gabriel and Jesus.

Are there apparent discrepancies or contradictions in the Bible? Absolutely. And, I think you are doing a good job of pointing some of them out. Obviously, though, I disagree with some of your conclusions, especially those regarding how God has, and will, deal with unsaved sinners. I believe God will rain down fire from the sky to punish and then destroy them. You don't. You believe it is the "glory" of God that causes them to cease to exist. Either way, it is God who owns the credit for how and why they die.