MM revealed:

"God was in control in that He didn't intervene on his behalf."

WOW! MM! You may be getting close to what non-arbitrary means!

God released His sustaining protection because Saul rejected God, sought Satan's helpers for "light". But this was after a loooong record of rejecting Truth, being bloodthirsty and self-centered.

This final release of protection did leave Saul vulnerable to Satan's suggestions and therefore Saul killed himself out of fear of what would become of him when the enemy troops fell on him.

BUT...The secondary point is that it is written in the Word in both ways in order that we can arrive at this conversation.

The paradoxes are on purpose.

God is never surprised; but He never forces love, either, or manipulates people. He leaves then to their own choices.

We all get what we want, in the End.

I agree that God gives us up to reap what we sow. But I do not agree that it means God is not in control. Take Balaam, for example. He was intent on cursing Israel for hire, but God persuaded him not to. And Cyrus. God worked hard to persuade him to fulfill his prophetic destiny. God isn't passive. He is very pro-active. He manages the affairs of mankind to His advantage. He will win the great controversy because He is control of the outcome. Satan is not at liberty to come and go as he pleases. God forces him to play by His rules. Yes, God is very much in control. Otherwise, none of us would be alive to talk about it. The Devil would have long ago wiped us out.

So, the intervention of God, has to do with him giving us life. That is very much in harmony.

Hey, Restin, your post was great!

I didn't see anyone answer my question, so I'll re-ask it, as I think it's a fundamanetal one (If someone did answer it, sorry I missed it).

quote:

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If Satan presents his own work as God's, how do we know when it is Satan acting and when it is God?

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MM, your statements regarding control I find confusing. Evil was not a part of God's plan. Inspiration makes that as clear as possible (I'm sure you're aware of the quotes, so I won't produce them). Hence evil came about because God was willing to cede "control" to His creatures. That is, He gave them free will, and they chose to sin. Sin has caused His children to view God in a way He is not, so God sent His Son to reveal the truth in order that they might be drawn back to God.

quote:

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The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. (ST 1/20/90)

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Tom, God didn't have to grant Satan time to further develop his rebellion. Nor did He have to initiate the plan of salvation when man sinned. God had other options. Of course He choose to do things the way they are, which means He is in control, and has been from the very beginning. Again, we manage the choices, but God manages the consequences, the outcome. God will win the great controversy because He is in control of Satan, man, and everything else involved. Nothing is left to choice or chance. The outcome of the great controversy is predetermined, and gauranteed by God Himself.

Do you doubt the outcome? If not, why not?

I don't doubt the outcome because Christ won the victory at the cross. However, the outcome was not certain until Christ won the victory.

quote:

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Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}

The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! {DA 49.2}

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Christ risked Himself, and God risked His Son, for our redemption, which thought should fill us with awe and thankfulness. Wonder, O heavens! indeed.

This topic is becoming side-tracked into another topic, therefore I have opened another one in order for this one to stay on target.

Please post your views on pre-destination, God's handling of the Universe and free-will at :


How "free" are we after all?

[ July 05, 2005, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]

The promise that Jesus would win the great controversy was given to Nahum, way before Jesus gave His life on the cross. In fact, it was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden. See Nahum 1:9 and Gen 3:15. From the very beginning God has assumed responsibility for the good and evil things He has allowed indirectly or caused directly. In the case of King Saul, God was in control of all the events leading up to his death on the field of battle. Ultimately, King Saul fell on his sword because God did not bless him and his kingdom.

I thought of a question:

If Satan presents his own work as God's, how do we know when it is Satan acting and when it is God?

What think ye?

Technically, it wouldn't matter. Why? Because God is ultimately in control. Whatever He gives Satan permission to do - God ultimately assumes the responsibility. The devil can do nothing more or less than what God allows him to do. For example, the gradual demise of King Saul. God managed King Saul's poor choices in such a way that all things played out according to God's will. Satan was more than willing to wreak as much havoc as God was willing to permit.