I think some input from some of the deep thinkers on these subjects may be of some help. I see that a few are having a hard time "stiffening up" their views or expressing themselves with plain speech.

This is a statement by one of our most famous leaders, made in 1930. I will reveal his/her name after we study quote awhile, OK?

(No; it is not Jones or Waggoner; they were sleeping in Jesus by that time. Nope, not Prescott or Fifield, either...It's a real surpriser!)


"We all know what the baptism with water is.
We have either seen it or received it.
But what is this baptism with fire? It is not something that is in contrast to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is not an alternative, an assertion that if you are not baptized with the Holy Spirit, then you must be baptized with fatal fire. The word does not say “or with fire,” but instead, “with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.” It is an explanatory phrase, completing the idea. It is the Scriptural way of repetition to emphasize and enforce a single thought. We are to be baptized with divine fire now to save us from destruction by consuming fire later. That this is the correct interpretation is evident from these words in “The Desire of Ages,” commenting on this scripture:
'The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. The word of the Lord to Israel was, I will turn My hand upon thee and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin.' To sin, wherever found our God is a consuming fire.' In all who submit to His power, the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them . . . At the Second Advent of Christ, the wicked shall be consumed 'with the Spirit of His mouth,' and destroyed 'with the brightness of His coming.' The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.' - Pages 107, 108.
"The meaning is plain when we consider, in the light of what happened at Pentecost, what fire is said in Scripture to do.
The reference is unquestionably to the fiery character of the work of the Holy Spirit and His purifying efficacy upon the soul:searching, penetrating, consuming, purifying, energizing the life.
When He takes possession of the soul, the effect is similar to the effect of fire in the natural world. For 'our God is a consuming fire' (Hebrews 12:29), and His Spirit is the 'spirit of burning.' Isaiah 4:4. The expression, 'our God is a consuming fire,' is not an angry threat. Rather it is a revelation of His nature, His sanctifying grace and power. Remember He is 'our God.' "

[ July 13, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]

Come on! Times a ticking!

OK...I will mail a copy of "Evolution Cruncher" to the first person who guesses who wrote this.

(Google-ing is futile!)

can't say.

It's a hard one, John B. I admit...
Do you find it interesting, though?

I like it. The author does a good job of explaining the spiritual nature of the expression "our God is a consuming fire." His ideas regarding the results of rebirth appear to parallel the ones I favor. But, how does your mystery writer interpret and apply the following inspired passages?

Luke
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Peter
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

GC 672, 673
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

It is interesting, to me, that Sister White substituted the original text in Psalm 11:6 with the alternate wording in the margin. Here's how the KJV reads:

Psalm
11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.

And here's what Sister White quoted:

Psalm
11:6 Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup."

I thought of the following scriptures when I read it.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Funny; I, like John B., saw the author's intent as meaning an individual man's spiritual cleansing from sin, and MM appears to have seen blood and vengence of a death-dealing God as most important. Why is that?

Phil, I, too, appreciated the spiritual aspects of the quote you posted, and said as much. However, since you titled this thread - How the Pioneers understood Glory, Fire and Death of the Wicked - it occurred to me to ask what your mystery author thought about the quotes I posted.

Is not the bulk and focus of your post, MM concerning revenge, not spiritual renewal?

Perhaps you did not notice, but the writer wrote this in 1930, hence he is logically either close to 100 years old or dead, so I can't ask him anything.

Please, Phil, lead this thread as you see fit. I will follow your lead. Thanx.