I think some input from some of the deep thinkers on these subjects may be of some help. I see that a few are having a hard time "stiffening up" their views or expressing themselves with plain speech.

This is a statement by one of our most famous leaders, made in 1930. I will reveal his/her name after we study quote awhile, OK?

(No; it is not Jones or Waggoner; they were sleeping in Jesus by that time. Nope, not Prescott or Fifield, either...It's a real surpriser!)


"We all know what the baptism with water is.
We have either seen it or received it.
But what is this baptism with fire? It is not something that is in contrast to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is not an alternative, an assertion that if you are not baptized with the Holy Spirit, then you must be baptized with fatal fire. The word does not say “or with fire,” but instead, “with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.” It is an explanatory phrase, completing the idea. It is the Scriptural way of repetition to emphasize and enforce a single thought. We are to be baptized with divine fire now to save us from destruction by consuming fire later. That this is the correct interpretation is evident from these words in “The Desire of Ages,” commenting on this scripture:
'The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. The word of the Lord to Israel was, I will turn My hand upon thee and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin.' To sin, wherever found our God is a consuming fire.' In all who submit to His power, the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them . . . At the Second Advent of Christ, the wicked shall be consumed 'with the Spirit of His mouth,' and destroyed 'with the brightness of His coming.' The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.' - Pages 107, 108.
"The meaning is plain when we consider, in the light of what happened at Pentecost, what fire is said in Scripture to do.
The reference is unquestionably to the fiery character of the work of the Holy Spirit and His purifying efficacy upon the soul:searching, penetrating, consuming, purifying, energizing the life.
When He takes possession of the soul, the effect is similar to the effect of fire in the natural world. For 'our God is a consuming fire' (Hebrews 12:29), and His Spirit is the 'spirit of burning.' Isaiah 4:4. The expression, 'our God is a consuming fire,' is not an angry threat. Rather it is a revelation of His nature, His sanctifying grace and power. Remember He is 'our God.' "

[ July 13, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]

Come on! Times a ticking!

OK...I will mail a copy of "Evolution Cruncher" to the first person who guesses who wrote this.

(Google-ing is futile!)

can't say.

It's a hard one, John B. I admit...
Do you find it interesting, though?

I like it. The author does a good job of explaining the spiritual nature of the expression "our God is a consuming fire." His ideas regarding the results of rebirth appear to parallel the ones I favor. But, how does your mystery writer interpret and apply the following inspired passages?

Luke
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Peter
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

GC 672, 673
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

It is interesting, to me, that Sister White substituted the original text in Psalm 11:6 with the alternate wording in the margin. Here's how the KJV reads:

Psalm
11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.

And here's what Sister White quoted:

Psalm
11:6 Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup."

I thought of the following scriptures when I read it.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Funny; I, like John B., saw the author's intent as meaning an individual man's spiritual cleansing from sin, and MM appears to have seen blood and vengence of a death-dealing God as most important. Why is that?

Phil, I, too, appreciated the spiritual aspects of the quote you posted, and said as much. However, since you titled this thread - How the Pioneers understood Glory, Fire and Death of the Wicked - it occurred to me to ask what your mystery author thought about the quotes I posted.

Is not the bulk and focus of your post, MM concerning revenge, not spiritual renewal?

Perhaps you did not notice, but the writer wrote this in 1930, hence he is logically either close to 100 years old or dead, so I can't ask him anything.

Please, Phil, lead this thread as you see fit. I will follow your lead. Thanx.

Oh...my...MM The opinions expressed by you seem to make you appear to want so much someone to lead, be in control and orchestrate... free men have no need for other men to dominate.
Christ Himself is our Leader, yet wants us to be His brothers, children, friends, and apprentices, not fawning, flattering slaves, servants or puppets. (He will accept those who think of themselves as such, but, oh! what a limited life and understanding this needlessly creates!)

My "mystery SDA scholar" continues with some amazing insights about God's use of fire, His glory and even the impossibility of christian fatalism:

Fire Reveals

“Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.” 1 Corinthians 3:13.

We will not study the exegesis of this text and its primary time of fulfillment, but simply try to
catch that one thought, that fire reveals. The baptism with fire reveals a man as he really is. It throws the beams of holy light into the innermost recesses of the soul. It shows us ourselves as God sees us.
When Jesus baptizes a man with the Holy Spirit and with fire, there is revealed an amount of pride, selfishness, suspiciousness, love of position, touchiness, and downright meanness that will be an amazement to him. When God baptizes my soul with fire, I come more and more to abhor myself. I sense increasingly that in me there is no good thing. All I have or am that is worth anything has been imputed and imparted to me from my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It brings me to my knees before God in contrite confession. And not only that, but it brings me to some of my brethren to tell them of grief over the un-Christ like things in my life, this tongue that speaks so quickly, the suspiciousness of my nature, and a hundred other things. The coming of a baptism with fire will result in a spirit of confession such as we have never known.
Remember the statement, by the Spirit of Prophecy, depicting [in a vision] the assemblage in the auditorium of the Tabernacle at a General Conference in Battle Creek.

“ One day at noon I was writing of the work that might have been done at the last [1901] General Conference if the men in positions of trust had followed the will and way of God. Those who have had great light have not walked in the light. The meeting was closed, and the break was not made. Men did not humble themselves before the Lord as they should have done, and the Holy Spirit was not imparted.
I had written thus far when I lost consciousness and I seemed to be witnessing a scene in Battle Creek. Prayer was offered, a hymn was sung, and prayer was again offered. Most earnest supplication was made to God. The meeting was marked by the presence of the Holy Spirit. The work went deep, and some present were weeping aloud. One arose from his bowed position, and said that in the past he had not been in union with certain ones, and had felt no love for them, but that now he saw himself as he was. [Fire revealed] With great solemnity he repeated the message to the Laodicean church. . . . The speaker turned to those who had been praying, and said: 'We have something to do. We must confess our sins, and humble our hearts before God.' He made heartbroken confessions, and then stepped up to several of the brethren, one after another, and extended his hand, asking forgiveness. Those to whom he spoke sprang to their feet, making confession and asking forgiveness and they fell upon one another's necks, weeping. The spirit of confession spread through the entire congregation. It was a Pentecostal season. God's praises were sung, and far into the night, until nearly morning, the work was carried on. . . . No one seemed to be too proud to make heartfelt confession, and those who led in this work were the ones who had influence, but had not before had courage to confess their sins.”
Then comes that tragic closing paragraph:
“ There was rejoicing such as never before had been heard in the Tabernacle.
Then I aroused from my unconsciousness, and for a while could not think where I was. My pen was still in my hand. The words were spoken to me:
‘This might have been. All this the Lord was waiting to do for His people. All heaven was waiting to be gracious.’
I thought of where we might have been had thorough work been done at the last General Conference.”
Testimonies, Volume 8, pages 104-106.

Shall we not pray for the baptism with fire, which will show us ourselves as we are? We are prone to judge by the outward appearance and conduct, but God looks into the heart. We must have that fire that teaches the inmost life, until every sin is disclosed and purged away." L.E.F.

Now, I find this quite a striking contrast to God's fire being lessened (when useful to one's designs) to being symbolic, parabolic, figurative, metaphorical, allegorical or any such thing, and should we not be shock if we do?

Phil, Elder Froom's description of the effects of spiritual fire is, indeed, awesome. May the church of God receive such a baptism, now, today.

You win the book, MM PM me your address and I will send it to you.

Giving Elder Froom's intials gave it away, I know, but a promise is a promise.

Wishing the church well is all very nice, but do you understand that Elder Froom's own statements, and his quote from EGW, seriously conflicts with pre-destination, what the glory of God actual is and how it is termed as destructive fire, burning away a thing, Sin, and not merely one's actions of breaking the Law????

I won! Yippee! Thank you. But I cannot, in good conscious, expect a self-sacrificing missionary to divert much needed funds by sending me a book I can buy myself. Please, invest in missions.

Now, back to Elder Froom's insights. Are you ready to discuss his thoughts on predestination, foreknowledge, hellfire, and brimstone? If so, then say on. Post his material and we can study it.

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but I read something about a free book. My conscience isn't as developed as MM's, so I am able to receive free property from self-sacrificing missionaries.

What's the book about?

It's a scientific refutation against evolution. Very clearly written for the non-scientist.
Give me your address if you want one, Tom.

Gents: Let's let the Lord label who is "self-sacrificing" or not. I'll acknowledge the missionary role, but blush at all adjectives.

Thoughtful study of Elders Froom's study can reveal some mighty vital matters concerning the Holy Spirit's role in fire, consumption and sin.
Those who think "spiritual fire" is not real, or merely allegorical may ask themselves: "Do I see spiritual matters as less than material matters?"


Fire Consumes
Let us note Ezekiel's striking parable of the boiling pot, symbolic of Jerusalem:
“Then set it empty upon the coals thereof, that the brass of it way be hot, and may burn, and that the filthiness of it may be molten in it, that the scum of it may be consumed.” Ezekiel 24:11.

That is another thing that fire does, it consumes the scum, the dross. But observe this sad comment on Jerusalem of old:
“She hath wearied herself with lies, and her great scum went not forth out of her.” Verse 12.

There was no separation between her filthiness and her gold. Mark well the sad judgment that awaits her:

“Thou shall not be purged from thy filthiness any more, till I have caused My fury to rest upon thee.” Verse 13.

We have our choice of letting the purifying fire, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, consume the dross now, or be ourselves consumed in the fierce flames of the last day when He shall “burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12.

Then there is this text:
“He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap [soap for the outside, fire for within] and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver. And He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.” Malachi 3:2,3.

He “sits” to purify. He is not in a hurry, not impatient. He will bring the fire to the right heat. He will continue it until the process is complete. Yea, our God is a refiner's fire. Let us who are seeking for the righteousness of God, pray for the Holy Spirit; first, to reveal, and then to consume, that the great scum of sin in our lives may be burned out.

“0 fire of God, burn on, burn on,
Till all my dross is burned away;
0 fire of God, burn on, burn on,
Prepare me for the testing day.”

While I appreciate his in depth study on the purifying affects of spiritual fire upon our hearts and minds, I don't read where he is saying the lake of fire is a metaphor. But perhaps you will be posting those insights shortly? In the meantime, I really am enjoying reading his thoughts on spiritual fire, really I am. So, please, resist, if you can, the temptation to turn this post into something that implies all I care to talk about is God punishing and destroying unsaved sinners. Thank you.

That I think that "the lake of fire as a metaphor" is a myth and fabrication of your own mind: no one has even suggested this, certainly not I. Please don't bring it up here again. Stop trying to control, please.
MSDAOL is not all about you, MM.
Either you do not read other's posts,MM, cannot comprehend other people or you think spreading misinformation on what others say is winning an argument. Only God knows your motive.
I pray that this article will burn away this character defect in you and anyone else who harbors these traits.

Phil, if I am as defective and devious as you seem to be implying, do you really think saying so is going to help me? Please, stop trying to figure out my shortcomings. If I misunderstand something, just set the record straight, never mind psycho-analyzing me. Thank you.

Somehow I got the idea you believe spiritual fire is symbolic fire, that the purifying effects of the Holy Spirit on sinners is like the effects of literal fire on gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble. Please, help me out here. Did I misunderstand you? What is spiritual fire? How is it like and unlike literal fire?

Lets cut to the chase:
Who thinks thelake of fire is for real?
Who thinks that the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire?
Who thinks the lakeof fire is not for real?
Who thinks that God does not destroy the wicked?

This will be better than playing charades.
God Bless,
Will

This topic is not about the lake of fire, in spite of someone's attempt to take it off subject and make it so. Sorry, Will but the "Charades" will need to be played elsewhere.

It is a about the fire of the Holy Spirit and sin.
Sin is personal; it cannot be objective, cooly handled as some abstract theological object.
Man often creates nice little "escape routes" for himself when face to face with his own moral defects, sins, foilables and errors in thought. Blaming others is the earliest technique; Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent, and we continue the tradition.

The root of Elder Froom's book is about the fire of the Holy Spirit and the river of Life, and is about the nuts-and-bolts reality of the "burning away" afforded by the baptism in the Holy Spirit. This is not an objective study. I will not be forced to water it down. Sorry.

If anyone is uncomfortable with this topic, I advise resistanting posting.

MMPlease do not make this topic into your own. Start your own topic, please.

My comment on this will be better than playing charades alludes to the repetitious pattern of not answering questions, but using other means, sort of like charades, you have to guess, and keep guessing.
God Bless,
Will

I do see what you mean, Will, but my point is that the Lake of Fire is at length discussed on other topics: I have made this one to look at another aspect of "fire, glory and the death of the wicked", not wanting to refocus on that one morbid subject.

MM I would rather study more of Elder Froom's discourse then be quizzed at the moment, please. My subject is about how the Pioneers saw things, not you or me.

Dear posters: please read this carefully and with open hearts, setting aside any personal objectives:

"Fire Purifies

Water cleanses, but not as fire. Fire is pre-eminently the cleansing element. It purifies internally and intrinsically, filling every fiber and particle of matter with its own, element. The filth on the outside of the gold, water can remove. But that which is on the inside must be cleansed by fire. A nearsighted man was industriously engaged in washing a window. He rubbed and rubbed, and washed at the windowpane, but he could not get it clean. A friend, passing by, saw the situation, and said to him, “It is dirty on the inside!” That is the trouble with us. We are unclean on the inside, in the heart.
Fire permeates through and through, while the water of our cleansing reaches only the surface. The ore must needs be flung into the furnace, the fires lighted, and powerful drafts played upon it.
As the rushing wind fans the flames, tongues of fire leap through the mass, which is brought up, to the smelting heat. Then the precious metal will be separated from its stony matrix, the dross parted from the gold. Having dwelt together through the ages, locked in tenacious embrace, they now flee repellantly from each other. Thus the Refiner is enabled to run off the golden stream into the mold of His own designing. Let us pray that God may do just that for us. It is the work of the divine Smelter we need.
It is the fire of the Holy Spirit that separates the precious from the vile. We cannot get sin out of the heart with the hammer and chisel of our own endeavor. The fire of God alone will do it. When that holy fire burns, it will consume the dross of our pride and vanity; the rags of our self-righteousness will perish, the leaves of empty profession will be consumed; the stubble of our questioning doubts will pass; the sham of unprofitable labor will go. The thorns of our prickly tempers will be taken away; the roots of bitterness, the straw of pretentious unreality, and the refuse of unprofitable talk will be devoured. All these unlovely things will be consumed by the Spirit of God, until the great Refiner can see His own image reflected in us, as the earthly refiner sees his own face in the glowing metal. We must go through the fire, either now or when He comes as a “consuming fire.” “I will . . . refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.” Zechariah 13:9.
Fire purifies by consuming. Hear it in these words:
“Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean Ups: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: and he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo,this hath touched thy lips. And your iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.” Isaiah 6: 5-7.
The sin of which Isaiah was conscious was lip sin. And, oh, my sin, too, and the sin of my people, is too often lip sin! You will note that in the reference to the translated company of Revelation 14:5, who shall follow the Lamb as His bodyguard through eternity, emphasis is placed upon the mouth: “In their mouth was found no guile.” May God cleanse and purify us from lip sin. For there is no member that sins so readily, and needs to be purified so completely, as the tongue. There is the thoughtless tongue of hasty speech. There is the proud tongue of self-inflation. There is the gossipy tongue of unholy exaggeration, and the unclean tongue of filthy allusion; the unkind tongue of unjust reflection, and the malicious tongue of prejudice and passion. All around us we can see the effect of lip sin. We need to have our lips cauterized, as
were Isaiah's.
“You shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean,” we are told in Numbers 31:23. That is the way to be made clean, by the penetrating, consuming, purifying baptism of the “Holy Ghost, and with fire.” We need that cleansing by fire to pass over us and through us, to penetrate every fiber of our being, every chamber of the soul. That is what happened at Pentecost. You recall that before Pentecost the disciples were filled with selfish wrangling, striving for the supremacy, seeking for position, striving to exalt self, to derogate their brethren; but after Pentecost self was abased, and Christ alone had first place in thought, in action, and in life. Love, harmony, and the power of unity were seen. They actually became new men.
The baptism with fire does make a new thing under the sun. You put iron ore into the fire, and it will come out pig iron. Put the pig iron through the fiery processes, and it will come out the highest quality of steel. 0, we want God to make a new thing out of us! We want to be cast into the fire, and become the new men and women in Christ Jesus that He designs us to be.