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Re: Pat Robertson excuses adultery?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152570
05/21/13 08:24 AM
05/21/13 08:24 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Headship is not pagan, although for some reason you despise it. I sometimes wonder if you wish you could be completely absolved of its responsibility.
Men who wish not to continue in their God-given role of headship are shirking their responsibilities. For a pastor, who has served in the headship role in a church capacity, to claim that headship is pagan is astonishing. In the above post you attacked Johann twice. The first time was when you stated that he despised it. That is personalization that goes beyond the issue. The second time was when cited your astonishment for the role that he, as one who had served as a pastor, took. NOTE: Some might find a 3rd attack.
So now I'm accused of being as evil . . .
From the above it is clear that Johann took it as apersonal attack.
Last edited by Gregory; 05/21/13 08:27 AM.
Gregory
May God's will be done.
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Re: Pat Robertson excuses adultery?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152571
05/21/13 08:35 AM
05/21/13 08:35 AM
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I was just talking with a pastor this past Sabbath who tried to persuade me to not share my faith openly, lest I be cast into prison and bring reproach upon God's church and work in this country. He himself was imprisoned for seven months at one time, and is now very careful in his religious movements and activities. Is this what God wants? Peter was instructed by the angel who freed him from prison to go right back to where he had the day before offended the scribes and Pharisees and preach again. They forbad him from preaching Christ, but God said go forward. We need more people like Peter. Holy boldness is required. Persecution may come; but may God's people be ready to stand true and firm no matter what happens.
I hesitate to respond to this as there is no easy answer. 1) People who are being persecuted for their faith do not need for people to come to their country from the outside, stir up trouble for the citizens of tha country and then leave them to take the consequences. 2) There is a time to boldly stand for the faith and a time to be careful. In ancient Rome, some Christians would go to the authorities and challenge them to arrest them for beign a Christian. EGW has something to say about how we should act under persecution. 3) Perhaps a review of some of what EGW has said would be helpful: DA 355, 451; 9T 230, 244; EV 304; 6T 478. She has said more, but this could be a start.
Last edited by Gregory; 05/21/13 08:53 AM.
Gregory
May God's will be done.
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Re: Pat Robertson excuses adultery?
[Re: Gregory]
#152572
05/21/13 11:31 AM
05/21/13 11:31 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Headship is not pagan, although for some reason you despise it. I sometimes wonder if you wish you could be completely absolved of its responsibility.
Men who wish not to continue in their God-given role of headship are shirking their responsibilities. For a pastor, who has served in the headship role in a church capacity, to claim that headship is pagan is astonishing. In the above post you attacked Johann twice. The first time was when you stated that he despised it. That is personalization that goes beyond the issue. The second time was when cited your astonishment for the role that he, as one who had served as a pastor, took. NOTE: Some might find a 3rd attack.
So now I'm accused of being as evil . . .
From the above it is clear that Johann took it as apersonal attack. Gregory, It has been said to me that one cannot be convicted of libel for something that is true. I have observed that in most of the world, whistle-blowers are considered to have protected status for their speaking of the truth, and none would say they have done wrong for disclosing the truth, though it is likely true that in many cases they are treated unfairly for their honest actions. If you want to say that I have "attacked," I suppose I cannot easily persuade you to adjust your terminology. Very well, then...let's ask this question: Did I speak truly in saying that Johann despises the doctrine of headship? Let the evidence speak for itself. What follows are various quotes from Johann's posts relating to headship. I will not, for the sake of space, quote his entire posts, but I will include the source of each so that one can look at their proper context as he or she may see fit. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=146022#Post146022 Now that he got caught having had sexual relationship with more than one woman besides his own wife, he continues his Headship theology by claiming that if an ordained minister has a sexual relationship with a woman that is not his wife, that is nobody else's business, and therefore he can continue in his ministry. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149308#Post149308You are welcome reading my comments there as well and the comments by others on what I have posted about the Male Headship teaching as a modern invention not known before Sam Bacchiocchi, the man who received the Gold Medal from the pope himself. http://advindicate.com/?p=2620&cpage=1#commentshttp://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149364#Post149364I am still so old fashioned in my opinions that I do not accept such modern and liberal notions, neither about the 24 elders nor the male headship, as proclaimed by such youngsters among televangelists as Stephen Bohr nor others who think they have greater wisdom. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149435#Post149435Is it any strange that I never heard of male headship during the time that I attended Emmanuel Missionary College in Berrien Springs nor the SDA Theological Seminary in Washington DC 1952-1958, and neither did people who attended these schools in the 1970-ies ever hear those terms used? These were new and strange inventions that entered our church after that time. In order to make them acceptable the inventors called the new notions conservative, and the gullible among us accepted that. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149499#Post149499We have mentioned the hermeneutics of Samuelle Bacchiocchi. It appears like he followed SDA typology from the beginning, but when he discovered that this type of hermeneutics actually allowed the ordination of female pastors, then he had to make an amendment to his hermeneutics where he could be in tune with Roman Catholic doctrines of male priesthood alone, as well as his male headship doctrine. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149676#Post149676When the question of ordaining women was current the objectors had to invent these doctrines of roles and male headship which were completely unknown in the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of Scripture. That seems to be introduced by Samuelle Bacchiocchi and his disciples to prevent the ordination to happen. Intruders at work. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=150197#Post150197A conference president once told me that one of the most difficult parts of his responsibility was dealing with saints in the church who were great spiritual leaders, but who used their male headship roles to have sexual relationships with young girls in their own families. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=151343#Post151343To me this is a dangerous deception to avoid the awareness of Sunday worship, same sex marriage and other evil dangers, thinking that the devoted members can be sanctified by accepting the male headship notion. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=151474#Post151474Many years later these facts made us borrow the Bible interpretation from some Sunday keeping churches which could be used to develop the male headship notions. Once your soul is sold on an idea it is not difficult to twist the Bible for support. May God have mercy on us! http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=145666#Post145666This might sound terrible in ears which have for so long been tuned to a different sound, but let me say that you are convincing me that the headship proclamation could well be the greatest curse the Church of God has ever encountered. Anything to appear like a saint when you in reality are avoiding the testimonies from God. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=151617#Post151617When these men have had such success in introducing such ideas from other churches and have it accepted by so many of the "saints" - such as that male headship idea, it is not surprising they also little by little try to get us to change more of our standard views on prophetic fulfillment. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=145576#Post145576Now I have not been able to detect that headship doctrine anywhere within the SDA 28 fundamentals, so to me that doctrine seems to be borrowed from other religions or churches. I find that its adherents try to find texts to prove their points, but quite a few serious Bible students are not convinced. Somehow that headship doctrine seems more in harmony with the teachings of some of the male Church leaders already in the 4th century who firmly believed that females were but second rate citizens. So, if speaking the truth is "attacking," Gregory, then I am by all means "attacking." If you do not believe me that Johann despises the doctrine, you have only to ask the man himself--or simply read his own statements above. One statement in particular stands out in my mind...I bolded it in the quote box above, but if you're short on time, here it is in short form. ...the headship proclamation could well be the greatest curse the Church of God has ever encountered. According to Mirriam Webster's dictionary, "despise" means "to look down on with contempt or aversion . 2. : to regard as negligible, worthless, or distasteful. — de·spise·ment \-ˈspīz-mənt\ noun."
Calling something a "curse" fits this definition, would you agree?
Furthermore, how is it "attacking" someone to express astonishment? Am I attacking because I am astonished?
Gregory, if there is someone being attacked here, it isn't Johann--unless you see him as attacking himself by his own words here. I did but speak the truth.
"For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips" (Proverbs 8:7).
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Pat Robertson excuses adultery?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152585
05/22/13 03:10 AM
05/22/13 03:10 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Green and persecution - - I think your pastor is right. I assume he is your "ordained" pastor. He has good advice. But He bade them not to expose themselves unnecessarily to persecution. He Himself often left one field of labor for another, in order to escape from those who were seeking His life. When He was rejected at Nazareth, and His own townsmen tried to kill Him, He went down to Capernaum, and there the people were astonished at His teaching; "for His word was with power." Luke 4:32. So His servants were not to be discouraged by persecution, but to seek a place where they could still labor for the salvation of souls. {DA 355.3} Other DA quotes on persecution include that we are not to be discouraged because of persecution. The light will be spread by persecution. The disciples or Christ were dispersed by persecution. We are not to withdraw to avoid persecution, but we are not to seek it either. When we go out to spread the Gospel: "Behold," said Jesus, "I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.""
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Pat Robertson excuses adultery?
[Re: APL]
#152591
05/22/13 03:16 PM
05/22/13 03:16 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Some people will only follow the portions of Scripture which fits their pre-conceived notions.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Pat Robertson excuses adultery?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152620
05/25/13 03:01 AM
05/25/13 03:01 AM
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SDA
Chaplain
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
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It has been said to me that one cannot be convicted of libel for something that is true. A common misconception, which is often true but sometimes wrong. People have been convicted, rarely, of libel when the truth was not in question. People can clearly in the U.S. be convicted of "defamation of character" for something that is true and this happens much more often. In any case, this issue in not governed by U.S. law, or any civil law. Whether or not Johann despises a position that you consider to be Biblical is not the issue. Your comments about Johann go beyond arguing the Biblical issue to attacking the person. I consider that to be inapropriate and beneath the dignity of a follower of Christ which is what I consider you to be. You seem to differ with me on that point.
Gregory
May God's will be done.
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