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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152943
06/06/13 09:08 PM
06/06/13 09:08 PM
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OP
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APL, all we have to do is to believe, but with the true faith, the one that works by love and purifies the soul. So, Christ died, I'm freed, I'm saved. Nothing more to do.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:44 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152945
06/06/13 09:22 PM
06/06/13 09:22 PM
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OP
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"true faith, one that works by love and purifies the soul". What you are really saying is NO - Christ death does not save you. It only provides a means by which we can be saved. Big difference! The condition for salvation is perfect conformity to the law. Without that, no one can be saved.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 05:13 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152946
06/06/13 09:23 PM
06/06/13 09:23 PM
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Well, I've answered your question. Will you answer mine?
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:44 PM.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152947
06/06/13 09:24 PM
06/06/13 09:24 PM
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The condition for salvation is perfect conformity to the law. Without that, no one can be saved. Perfect conformity to the law is only found in Christ's life and death.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:45 PM.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152948
06/06/13 10:39 PM
06/06/13 10:39 PM
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I didn't refer to that. I asked whether you believe or not that Christ paid our penalty for having transgressed the law, that He paid the debt we owed to the law, that His death was substitutive in this sense. How can we owe a debt to the law? Last week a Russian visitor drove through our area at 168 kilometers an hour, twice the speed allowed. A reluctant policeman I know admitted to me that he had stopped the driver. Because he was not a resident the driver had to pay about a thousand dollars on the spot. His driver´s license was revoked for three months which meant that he had to leave the car and take a taxi. Neither our traffic laws nor the ten commandments themselves prescribe the exact penalty. People with a proper license are permitted to use our roads within certain limits. If they exceed these limits they no longer have the right to drive here because that endangers our safety. In this case the driver lost his possibility of renewing the broken covenant for three months. Besides that he had to help pay the expenses of having officers on the road to ensure the safety rules are upheld. The Ten Commandments are the Covenant of life between man and the Life Giver. If man choses to leave this covenant he no longer lives within the realms of life. The covenant needs to be restored, and throughout the whole Bible you find the ways to re-enter this covenant of life, even if you have broken the covenant. Jesus says, Come unto me all ye who labor to earn your way back . . . Behold I stand at the door. . . For God so loved the world . . . Christ gave up His human life, not His divine life, because Divinity cannot die. With His divine life He was able to restore His own life which also restores the life of those who are not living within the covenant, but depend of Him for restoration. The best description of that you will find through the pages of the Desire of Ages, where you also find the Scripture references. Just like Christ gave us His human life we too must give up our human desires that His Divinity may find access to our hearts and make the covenant (commandments) alive there. This is part of the sealing work provided by the Holy Spirit. This is the restoration of life and health.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:46 PM.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152958
06/07/13 12:12 AM
06/07/13 12:12 AM
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OP
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÷ The condition for salvation is perfect conformity to the law. Without that, no one can be saved. Perfect conformity to the law is only found in Christ's life and death. The law demands perfect obedience, a righteous life. There is no other way to be saved. THEREFORE - Salvation is not a LEGAL solution to a LEGAL problem It is not legal. The essences of the Gospel is RESTORATION. The only way to be saved it so be restored into perfect conformity with the law. The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2} Those who are teaching this doctrine [of the Nicolaitans] today have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient: that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfills the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God [the doctrine of the Nicolaitans]. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that He has saved them. "I am saved," they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception, and Christ becomes to these persons a stumbling block as He did to the Jews,--to the Jews, because they would not receive Him as their personal Saviour, to these professed believers in Christ, because they separate Christ and the law, and regard faith as a substitute for obedience. They separate the Father and the Son, the Saviour of the world. Virtually they teach, both by precept and example, that Christ, by His death, saves men in their transgressions. {BEcho, February 8, 1897 par. 7} The point - we are saved FROM our sins, not IN our sins. We MUST be transformed. We MUST be HEALED. This is NOT a LEGAL solution. It is a Trust/Healing solution. And guess what? It reguires work. Our works do not save us, but we must put forth effort. God will not do for us what we can do. Salvation is a stuggle. Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Salvation is restoration. Not legal release. The only way to be saved, it to perfectly obey the law. God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {SC 43.2}
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:47 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152966
06/07/13 02:23 AM
06/07/13 02:23 AM
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Brazil
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Perfect conformity to the law is only found in Christ's life and death. The law demands perfect obedience, a righteous life. There is no other way to be saved. THEREFORE - Salvation is not a LEGAL solution to a LEGAL problem It is not legal. The essences of the Gospel is RESTORATION. The only way to be saved it so be restored into perfect conformity with the law. Have you ever sinned? THEREFORE, your obedience is no longer perfect. Again, Christ died because there was no other hope for the transgressor. He might try to keep God's law in the future; but the debt which he had incurred in the past remained, and the law must condemn him to death. Christ came to pay that debt for the sinner which it was impossible for him to pay for himself. Thus, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, sinful man was granted another trial (FO, 30). And again, Perfect conformity to the law is only found in Christ's life and death. So salvation is also a LEGAL problem, because the only way for you to have a perfect obedience is if Christ credits His obedience to you and covers with His righteousness all of your imperfect efforts. Yes, we must obey the law of God, but even if you never sinned again, the law will condemn you for the sins you've already committed. That's why you need Christ's righteousness in place of yours, and this is a LEGAL transaction. You confuse our TITLE to heaven with our fitness for it.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:48 PM.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152969
06/07/13 03:01 AM
06/07/13 03:01 AM
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OP
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Rosangela, did you even read, carefully, EGW's quotations? Let's compare one of your statements with hers. Whose would you believe, yours or hers? I'll take hers.
Rosangela:"covers with His righteousness all of your imperfect efforts"
EGW: "garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception"
Yes, past sin must be expunged. It must be removed! All sin must be removed. You picture sin as if it were not a real thing, and more like just an accounting problem. Sin is NOT a LEGAL problem. It is a REAL problem. The ONLY title you have to heaven is your fitness for heaven. You only are fit for heaven when you have been transformed, healed, totally converted. This is the plan of salvation (which means healing). If sin were a legal problem and Christ's death solved it, then everyone has a title to heaven. Such teaching is a gross deception. It is the teaching of the Nicolaitans as EGW says.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:48 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152970
06/07/13 05:36 AM
06/07/13 05:36 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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Did the death of Christ finish the work? No. The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was his death upon the cross. Christ's death provided the means, the know-how, the grace (Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7), but that is not sufficient to save anyone by itself. The knowledge gained needs to be applied. The healing needs to be performed, without which, no one can be saved. All must be brought back into conformity with the law. Hebrews 2:17-18 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:49 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152976
06/07/13 01:06 PM
06/07/13 01:06 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Brazil
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Rosangela, did you even read, carefully, EGW's quotations? Let's compare one of your statements with hers. Whose would you believe, yours or hers? I'll take hers.
Rosangela:"covers with His righteousness all of your imperfect efforts"
EGW: "garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception" APL, You are comparing my words with the wrong quote. Nobody is speaking here of iniquity, voluntary permanence in sin. I am speaking about imperfect efforts. So please compare my words with the right quote: Rosangela:"covers with His righteousness all of your imperfect efforts" EGW: Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf. Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God. {FW 48.3}
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:50 PM.
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