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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152977
06/07/13 01:15 PM
06/07/13 01:15 PM
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Yes, past sin must be expunged. It must be removed! How is it removed? You can't undo what you did. You must exchange it for what Christ did, and this is a legal transaction. O, that my brethren could see the fulness that there is in Jesus, and the love wherewith He hath loved us! In Christ we are as if we had suffered the penalty we have incurred. In Christ I am as if I had obeyed, and rendered perfect obedience to the law, which we can not perfectly obey without Christ imparts to us His merits and His righteousness. O, the plan of salvation is a wonderful matter, and we have enough to think of, and talk of, and to be thankful for every day of our lives. {PUR, September 4, 1913 par. 3} If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:50 PM.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152978
06/07/13 01:25 PM
06/07/13 01:25 PM
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Did the death of Christ finish the work? No. Ok. I'm in agreement with this.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:51 PM.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152982
06/07/13 03:18 PM
06/07/13 03:18 PM
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OP
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Rosangela, did you even read, carefully, EGW's quotations? Let's compare one of your statements with hers. Whose would you believe, yours or hers? I'll take hers.
Rosangela:"covers with His righteousness all of your imperfect efforts"
EGW: "garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception" APL, You are comparing my words with the wrong quote. Nobody is speaking here of iniquity, voluntary permanence in sin. I am speaking about imperfect efforts. So please compare my words with the right quote: You introduce a new defintion. You definition that is not valid. Iniquity is not permanent. It can be forgiven. Exodus 34:6-9 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the children's children, to the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. 9 And he said, If now I have found grace in your sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray you, go among us; for it is a stiff necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for your inheritance. My comparison with EGW quote and your is spot on. Rosangela:"covers with His righteousness all of your imperfect efforts"
EGW: Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf. Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God. {FW 48.3} AMEN AMEN. Our works do not save us, but we MUST put forth EFFORT. What is EFFORT? The work we put forward. It does not save us, but be must exercised. The command is not, Let him that glorieth glory in himself, but in God. For sinful men, the highest consolation, the greatest cause of rejoicing, is that Heaven has given Jesus to be the sinner's Saviour. When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, there was no hope for the sinful race; but Christ offered to take the sin upon himself. He offered to go over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell; to meet the tempter on the field of battle, and conquer him in man's behalf. Behold him in the wilderness of temptation. Forty days and forty nights he fasted, enduring the fiercest assaults of the powers of darkness. He trod the "wine-press alone; and of the people there was none with" him. It was not for himself, but that he might break the chain that held the human race in slavery to Satan. He saw that man had become so weakened by disobedience that he had not wisdom or strength to meet the wily foe, and this is why the Son of God takes upon himself man's nature, and, gaining the victory in our behalf, brings to us divine power, that, combined with human effort, will enable us to overcome. {RH, March 15, 1887 par. 10} NOTE: 1) there was no hope for Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit. Why? Because they were in legal trouble? 2) Christ took the sin upon himself. Christ OVERCAME. Overcame what? SIN. Was the sin on him only in Gethsemane as Green claims? NO. Look at the wilderness of temptation. Christ was made to besin. 3) Sin had bound humans to Satan. LEGALLY? NO. In reality. Man had become "so weakened". This is in the fleah. This is why Christ took on human nature, "sin laden flesh". Christ gained the victory. And will give us His divine power COMBINED with human effort, to ENABLE us to OVERCOME. We MUST overcome, or we will not be saved. This requied HUMAN EFFORT. But none of our effort is good enough. It must be COMBINED with DIVINE POWER. We can not trust anything we can do. But we still must choose Him. The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3} Is our goal to be legally off the hook? NO. We must be RENEWED in holiness. We must be restored. Born again.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:51 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152983
06/07/13 03:25 PM
06/07/13 03:25 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Yes, past sin must be expunged. It must be removed! How is it removed? You can't undo what you did. You must exchange it for what Christ did, and this is a legal transaction.O, that my brethren could see the fulness that there is in Jesus, and the love wherewith He hath loved us! In Christ we are as if we had suffered the penalty we have incurred. In Christ I am as if I had obeyed, and rendered perfect obedience to the law,which we can not perfectly obey without Christ imparts to us His merits and His righteousness. O, the plan of salvation is a wonderful matter, and we have enough to think of, and talk of, and to be thankful for every day of our lives. {PUR, September 4, 1913 par. 3} If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2} Does God lie? NO. If we are accounted righteous, it is because we ARE righteous. When we are healed, restored, it will be as if we had never sinned. The sin is gone. Not legally, but in reality. It is not a legal transaction. This is what Jesus calls in John 3 being born again. "BORN AGAIN" - we total transformation of the WHOLE NATURE as EGW says in Steps to Christ. We can not undo what has happened, but God can!
THIS IS WHAT IS CALLED THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION. AMAZING!!!
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:52 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152993
06/07/13 09:23 PM
06/07/13 09:23 PM
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Does God lie? NO. If we are accounted righteous, it is because we ARE righteous. Now compare what you said with what Ellen White says: APL: If we are accounted righteous, it is because we ARE righteous EGW: Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. {OHC 52.3} When we are healed, restored, it will be as if we had never sinned. The sin is gone. Not legally, but in reality. It is not a legal transaction. This is what Jesus calls in John 3 being born again. "BORN AGAIN" - we total transformation of the WHOLE NATURE as EGW says in Steps to Christ. We can not undo what has happened, but God can! Of course at conversion there is a new birth and the total transformation of the whole nature. No question about that. But in which way can the transformation of your nature undo what you did? If you killed somebody, your guilt, your sin, is gone because you are born again? So the new birth, not the blood of Christ, takes away sin?
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:52 PM.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152994
06/07/13 09:40 PM
06/07/13 09:40 PM
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We MUST overcome, or we will not be saved. And how is a baby saved if he wasn't born again and didn't overcome?
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:53 PM.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152995
06/07/13 09:48 PM
06/07/13 09:48 PM
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Our works do not save us, but we MUST put forth EFFORT. What is EFFORT? The work we put forward. It does not save us, but be must exercised. What saves us?
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:54 PM.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#152996
06/07/13 09:48 PM
06/07/13 09:48 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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APL: If we are accounted righteous, it is because we ARE righteous
EGW: Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. {OHC 52.3}
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! God does not lie! He cannot lie. If you are restored, healed, you are treated as if you never even had sin!!! Those admitted to heaven, will be righteous.
Rosangela: Of course at conversion there is a new birth and the total transformation of the whole nature. No question about that. But in which way can the transformation of your nature undo what you did? If you killed somebody your guilt, your sin, is gone because you are born again? So the new birth, not the blood of Christ, takes away sin?
apl: NO - Christ blood provides you the new birth!! And, in a very literal sense, not a legal sense.
The example from the OT time was leprosy. A leprous peson was banned from the community. Sinners are banned from the community of non-sinners. If a leprous person was healed, and certified as so by the priest, they were admitted back into the community as if they had never had leprosy. They are treated as if there were healthy. A sinner when they are healed, are admitted back into the community of the universe. There is nothing in the the OT law that would legally let a leprous person back. The only way it to come back into compliance with the law, which means they could not have any leprosy. The same with sin. The atonement that Christ worked out has to be applied to each individual. The work of the cleansing of the sanctuary is just as necessary as the death of Christ. Without the application, there is no salvation. It is healing, not legal.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:54 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#152997
06/07/13 09:59 PM
06/07/13 09:59 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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But in which way can the transformation of your nature undo what you did? If you killed somebody your guilt, your sin, is gone because you are born again? So the new birth, not the blood of Christ, takes away sin? Here is the problem - the 10 commandments are a diagnostic instrument. They describe the disease sin. Violation of the 10C are symptoms, murder, lying, coveting, are "sins". The disease is "Sin". If you treat the disease, the symptoms go away. If you murder someone, yes, they are gone. Their case will be handled in the investigative judgement. They will come up in the correct resurrection. You know the story of Job. What is the story of Job about? Yes, it shows that Satan is a liar, a murder, the cause of all destruction, not God. But there is a very important part to the story of Job which many people miss. And that is that God can call a character. God knew Job, and how he would respond. In the judgment, sinners are not the only once on trial. GOD is on trial. In the IJ when God says, yes, I will admit Rosangela to the Kingdom, He will need to make the case and present all the facts to assure the unfallen world that Rosangela is safe to save. Not legally off the hook, but completely restored, or as will be the case for most, restorable. God can call the character and knows the direction and end results of a persons salvation. The IJ may be more about God that us.
Last edited by Rosangela; 06/08/13 04:55 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin?
[Re: APL]
#152998
06/07/13 09:59 PM
06/07/13 09:59 PM
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APL,
There are two other posts for you to reply to. Up till now, what I have seen here is salvation by works.
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