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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153171
06/13/13 05:35 PM
06/13/13 05:35 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Now, you didn't comment upon my post about justification.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153172
06/13/13 05:50 PM
06/13/13 05:50 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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So, did God already have the necessary knowledge for salvation/restoration in the days of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah? Question - did God know who Cyrus was? How did He know? Did God know about the 70 week prophesy? 2300 days? How was this knowledge gained? How was this knowledge known before hand? Is knowledge gained in the future out of reach to God? I guess you think so asygo.... It looks like your theory generates only questions. Any good theory provides answers to questions. You should lay aside your pride of opinion and face the fact that your theory cannot answer basic questions. But maybe you do have answers, but just enjoy being coy. If you can, please answer my simple question with a yes or no. But from what I know of your ideas, you cannot do it because either answer is fatal to one or more of your fundamental premises.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153173
06/13/13 06:17 PM
06/13/13 06:17 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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The law condemns. If you want to be saved, that needs to stop. A legal solution is required. Smoking kills. Legal solution required. Not breathing kills. Legal solution required. You are not breathing? That's OK - Christ is breathing for you, you are saved! Nope. The only way to be saved is to be brought back into full compliance with the law. The law cannot be changed. We must keep the law. How are we able to keep the law? That is what saves us. It seems you don't know what "legal" means. Let me help: Definition of LEGAL 1: of or relating to law So you are basically saying that the solution has nothing to do with the law, even though it condemns. IOW: - Smoking kills, but the solution has nothing to do with smoking.
- Lack of oxygen kills, but the solution has nothing to do with oxygen.
Weird, no? The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. So if you want to avoid the death that comes with sin, you need to know how to deal with the law, which is by definition, a legal matter.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: asygo]
#153174
06/13/13 06:45 PM
06/13/13 06:45 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. So if you want to avoid the death that comes with sin, you need to know how to deal with the law, which is by definition, a legal matter. Is there a law of gravity? Is it legal? The physician should teach his patients that they are to cooperate with God in the work of restoration. The physician has a continually increasing realization of the fact that disease is the result of sin. He knows that the laws of nature, as truly as the precepts of the Decalogue, are divine, and that only in obedience to them can health be recovered or preserved. Are the laws of nature "legal"? They are just as sure the laws of God as are the decalog. The decalog is a description of how one would behave if within the bounds of the law of God. The law of God is a design template on which all nature operates, both animate and inanimate. Everything is regulated by laws. The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. {PP 52.3} The law of God is a design template. It is not enacted legislation. There is no remedy in the law for breaking the law. If there is no remedy in the law, there is no legal way to recover the sinner because there is nothing in the law to recover the sinner. The only way to be saved is to be restored into compliance with the law. This is what Christ came to do and is doing. So you are basically saying that the solution has nothing to do with the law, even though it condemns. The solution is to be brought back into compliance. That is the only solution. The iniquity has to be removed. [/quote=asygo] IOW: Smoking kills, but the solution has nothing to do with smoking. Lack of oxygen kills, but the solution has nothing to do with oxygen. Weird, no? [/quote]Lack of oxygem kills, but the solution has nothing, nothing? to do with oxygen? If you say so. These things kill. Is it by legal legislation that they kill? Is the penalty intrinsic or imposed? Intrinsic. The law of God is the same way. God does not have to execute the sinner. As I quoted above, God is not the executioner. Do you agree or disagree? Is the penalty of the law, execution by God?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153175
06/13/13 06:51 PM
06/13/13 06:51 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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God is merciful and just. If God just forgave sin remitting its consequences, He would be merciful but not just. So, He suffered the consequences of sin on Himself, so that we could be forgiven. This is justification.) Hm - where have I heard that line before? I KNOW! In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. Your comment and Satan's charges sound an awful lot alike. Now tell me, how does God taking the consequences of sin on Himself allow us to be forgiven? Please, explain! I want the mechanism, in your view.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153176
06/13/13 07:49 PM
06/13/13 07:49 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. So if you want to avoid the death that comes with sin, you need to know how to deal with the law, which is by definition, a legal matter. Is there a law of gravity? Is it legal? Can you disobey the law of gravity? No. But you can disobey the law of God. But let's say you do manage to disobey the law of gravity. Can someone else impute to you their obedience? No. But that can and must be done for the law of God. They're not quite the same kind of law. Your model is flawed.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: asygo]
#153179
06/13/13 10:30 PM
06/13/13 10:30 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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Western, USA
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Can you jump off a cliff? Yes. Will you die? Yes. Is the penalty intrinsic or imposed? Did God have to set in and kill you? No.
Legislated laws can be changed. Can the law of God be changed? Why not? After all, the penalty is imposed and thus it is arbitrary. If you are on a highway and exceeding the posted legal speed limit, is the penalty intrinsic or imposed? Speed limits are legislated and arbitrary. Imposed penalties are arbitrary. For murder, one country might have the death penalty. Another might have a maximum sentence of 20 years. The penalty is arbitrary. God's law not only will kill you for murder, but it will kill you for THINKING about murder. God created a pretty weak system is if just wrong thinking will cause death and not only of people, but of all life. Of course, sin does not kill plants and animals. It must be an imposed penalty.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153190
06/14/13 02:17 AM
06/14/13 02:17 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Brazil
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Your comment and Satan's charges sound an awful lot alike.
If you don't know, Satan always mixes truth with lie. Which part of his statement, in your view, is the truth, and which is the lie? Now tell me, how does God taking the consequences of sin on Himself allow us to be forgiven? Please, explain! I want the mechanism, in your view. Instead of my view, I'll give Ellen White's view: "God's law has lost none of its force. In his sight sin is still a hateful thing. Because we have sinned, we must personally bear the condemnation of the law, unless some one else, one in whom no taint of sin can be found, will bear the condemnation in our behalf. Without a substitute, we have no hope of pardon and salvation. Although the sinner can not himself in any way evade the charge of disloyalty to God's law, he may by faith accept Christ as his personal Saviour, his suretyship, and be pardoned." {AU Gleaner, August 19, 1903 par. 3, 4 Besides this one, some other quotes that need to be explained by your view: Christ died because there was no other hope for the transgressor. He might try to keep God's law in the future; but the debt which he had incurred in the past remained, and the law must condemn him to death. Christ came to pay that debt for the sinner which it was impossible for him to pay for himself. Thus, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, sinful man was granted another trial. {FW 30.1} Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2} "Christ had come to give his life a ransom for many. As the Good Shepherd, he had laid down his life for the sheep. It was the righteousness of God to maintain his law by inflicting the penalty. This was the only way in which the law could be maintained, and pronounced holy, and just, and good. It was the only way by which sin could be made to appear exceeding sinful, and the honor and majesty of divine authority be maintained." {YI, August 4, 1898 par. 3}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153191
06/14/13 02:30 AM
06/14/13 02:30 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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HOW does god inflict the penalty of the law? Does sin cause death or does God cause death? Put all the EGW quotes together and you get the answer. Great Controversy: God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.
God is not the executioner, is that not clear?
How does Christ's death atone for sin? Yes, nice words above, what what do they mean???
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153194
06/14/13 07:51 AM
06/14/13 07:51 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL,
How did Jesus become "sin" if He never once sinned?
I see no way of explanation per your view to answer this one question.
Corollary questions to the above, which seem unanswerable per your view, include:
1) How did Jesus have sinful DNA if He was not a sinner? - OR - 2) How did Jesus have perfect DNA if He became "sin" for us?
I would be surprised if you can provide a fully logical and inspired-quote supported answer to any of the above questions that would agree with your view.
Apart from your view, any of these questions is simple to answer.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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