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Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153613
06/25/13 01:36 PM
06/25/13 01:36 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Let's pick another city: Sodom. How did God destroy Sodom?

That answer is also clear, but you won't dare answer this one.
It is written:
Hosea 11:5-9
5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, and the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.
6 And the sword shall abide on his cities, and shall consume his branches, and devour them, because of their own counsels.
7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.
8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver you, Israel? how shall I make you as Admah? how shall I set you as Zeboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
9 I will not execute the fierceness of my anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the middle of you: and I will not enter into the city.


Interesting. You have found another text to show how God destroyed Sodom, without even mentioning Sodom. Good job! Ephraim, however, was not to be destroyed in the same manner. Mrs. White writes the following about this:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." Here is language that expresses His mind toward a corrupt and idolatrous people: "How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? Mine heart is turned within Me, My repentings are kindled together." Must He give up the people for whom such a provision has been made, even His only-begotten Son, the express image of Himself? God permits His Son to be delivered up for our offenses. He Himself assumes toward the Sin Bearer the character of a judge, divesting Himself of the endearing qualities of a father. {TM 245.2}


In that quote we see that God assumes toward the Sin Bearer (shall we say "stands toward the Sin Bearer as") the character of a judge, instead of that of a kindly father.

Sodom was destroyed by God. Jesus was judged to take our punishment. God does not want to punish, but sometimes must.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153614
06/25/13 01:43 PM
06/25/13 01:43 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
To say that God will and must be the one to end sin and sinners along with it, is to say that a governance under the principles of self-interest and self-exaltation is a valid alternative to existence and that if He did not employ force to end it "sin would never cease to exist." The nature of sin has in it the inherent seed of death and it does not require the Creator's hand wielding a weapon of destruction to end it. Sin is entropic, de-evolutionary. Even without God laying a finger on anyone, this world is doomed to destruction all on its own. Look around you and do you see anything getting better? Are new species coming back into existence again? Is the water getting purer? The air? Are there less storms and earthquakes every year? Are we eradicating diseases? Are we learning to share and cooperate and stop warring with each other? You get the point. This is a dying planet. Left to its own, there would be no life left on the earth. {K. Straub}

I do believe that if God didn't intervene, this world would be doomed to destruction. But this wouldn't happen if God had let the tree of life remain here. And this wouldn't happen with Satan and his angels. If God didn't cease to sustain their lives, they would be immortal sinners. It indeed would be a miserable existence, but an eternal one. If God ceased to sustain their lives, they would of course die, as I said, but so would the unfallen creatures. So sin per se doesn't kill.

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153616
06/25/13 01:47 PM
06/25/13 01:47 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when he bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God's law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. {AG 168.3}

In every age, transgression of God's law has been followed by the same result. In the days of Noah, when every principle of rightdoing was violated, and iniquity became so deep and widespread that God could no longer bear with it, the decree went forth, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth." Genesis 6:7. In Abraham's day the people of Sodom openly defied God and His law; and there followed the same wickedness, the same corruption, the same unbridled indulgence, that had marked the antediluvian world. The inhabitants of Sodom passed the limits of divine forbearance, and there was kindled against them the fire of God's vengeance. {PK 297.2}


God destroyed Sodom on account of its great wickedness. God will also destroy the whole earth by fire in the end, both sin and sinners will be consumed. Mrs. White says Sodom was consumed by "the fire of God's vengeance." Jude tells us Sodom was an example of how all the wicked will one day be consumed.

Jesus suffered the wrath of God, under great "agony." Why should the wicked get let off the hook? The watching universe would be dissatisfied if they should not receive what they have earned. God will be just. Vengeance is His. This is why the wicked are raised to life at the end of the millennium to receive their reward.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153617
06/25/13 01:54 PM
06/25/13 01:54 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
It is God who holds in His hands the destiny of souls. He will not always be mocked; He will not always be trifled with. Already His judgments are in the land. Fierce and awful tempests leave destruction and death in their wake. The devouring fire lays low the desolate forest and the crowded city. Storm and shipwreck await those who journey upon the deep. Accident and calamity threaten all who travel upon the land. Hurricanes, earthquakes, sword and famine, follow in quick succession. Yet the hearts of men are hardened. They recognize not the warning voice of God. They will not flee to the only refuge from the gathering storm. --Ellen White.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153619
06/25/13 03:01 PM
06/25/13 03:01 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
It is God who holds in His hands the destiny of souls. He will not always be mocked; He will not always be trifled with. Already His judgments are in the land. Fierce and awful tempests leave destruction and death in their wake. The devouring fire lays low the desolate forest and the crowded city. Storm and shipwreck await those who journey upon the deep. Accident and calamity threaten all who travel upon the land. Hurricanes, earthquakes, sword and famine, follow in quick succession. Yet the hearts of men are hardened. They recognize not the warning voice of God. They will not flee to the only refuge from the gathering storm. --Ellen White.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.
GREEN - is it God that is causing storm and shipwreck? Famine and calamity? Are you saying God is causing all of these? REALLY????

Originally Posted By: EGW
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.

Last edited by APL; 06/25/13 03:05 PM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153621
06/25/13 03:19 PM
06/25/13 03:19 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,431
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

You are not speaking truthfully.
How can you say that when you say things such as
"Punishment is not forced,"?

Quote:
Rosangela and myself have but given you statements from none other than Mrs. White and the Bible. How can you set yourself up against them?

But yet:
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Did you notice I also accused you of using EGW against herself? That is because there was an actual contradiction.

Why did you mention that you and Rosangela gave "statements from none other than Mrs. White and the Bible" when you admit APL used statements from White? That sounds like you are attempting to make APL look bad by implying something which isn't true.

Actual contradiction? Because APL used Mrs. White?
Hmmm....

Kind of reminds me of,
God is not the destroyer because He is the destroyer.

Who's accusing who of not being "truthful"?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Rosangela] #153622
06/25/13 03:33 PM
06/25/13 03:33 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,431
Midland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
So sin per se doesn't kill.
Seems we have been through this before regarding the tree of life and sin. Sin doesn't kill, but the lack of the tree of life kills?


So it's do as I say and I'll give you food, otherwise you can starve!

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #153625
06/25/13 04:32 PM
06/25/13 04:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Seems we have been through this before regarding the tree of life and sin. Sin doesn't kill, but the lack of the tree of life kills?

The lack of the tree of life would kill, sin or no sin; but the access to the tree of life would prolong life for ever, sin or no sin. Immortality for human beings was conditional, and man lost it when he sinned. But immortality for angels wasn't conditional. So, if God doesn't cease to sustain the life of Satan and his angels, they will live, in sin, for ever. So how can you say that sin, per se, kills?


Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #153626
06/25/13 04:35 PM
06/25/13 04:35 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
So it's do as I say and I'll give you food, otherwise you can starve!

Well, the condition of eternal life has always been, and will always be, perfect obedience. It's He who gives eternal life, and it's He who establishes the conditions.

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Rosangela] #153627
06/25/13 05:33 PM
06/25/13 05:33 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: EGW
The discord which his own course had caused in heaven, Satan charged upon the government of God. All evil he declared to be the result of the divine administration. He claimed that it was his own object to improve upon the statutes of Jehovah. Therefore God permitted him to demonstrate the nature of his claims, to show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. Satan had claimed from the first that he was not in rebellion. The whole universe must see the deceiver unmasked. {PP 42.2}

Even when he was cast out of heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since only the service of love can be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of the worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted out of existence, some would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, he must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, and that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might be forever placed beyond all question. {PP 42.3}

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages--a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and its terrible results. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty. {PP 42.4}

He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. Though "clouds and darkness are round about Him: righteousness and judgment are the foundation of His throne." Psa_97:2, R.V. And this the inhabitants of the universe, both loyal and disloyal, will one day understand. "His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He." Deu_32:4. {PP 43.1}


Only a service of love can be accepted by God. If you don't love Him, will He then kill you?

The nature and consequences of sin. Sin causes all strife, sickness and death. Unfallen beings can live in God's unquencable fire. Sinful beings can't

Serve God from fear... Is this not what Green is saying? God will destroy sinners, so learn and don't sin!

A testimony to the NATURE of sin and ITS terrible results. Is it sin or is it God that causes the destruction?

This terrible experiment will be a perpetural safeguard, because we will know the nature of transgression and what the results are. So be afraid of God because He will kill you if you do not comply. Or is it sin will destroy the sinner? Which is it?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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