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Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153744
06/29/13 06:08 AM
06/29/13 06:08 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Andrews knew the truth.
Quote:
When God sends men strong delusion to believe a lie that they all might be damned, it must be after the righteous have accomplished their work of overcoming, and after the Saviour has ceased to plead. The only way that God sends this strong delusion is by withdrawing his spirit when men have sinned away the day of grace, thus leaving them a prey to the unrestrained power of the devil. {1890 JNA, JEO 92.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153745
06/29/13 10:32 AM
06/29/13 10:32 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Here's an article by Andrews that answers Johann's claim about the teachings of those who promote the concept of an eternally-burning hell.

Originally Posted By: J. N. Andrews

The Rich Man and Lazarus

i Information about this Pamphlet


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By J. N. Andrews




ARE the wicked dead now being punished? This is a question of awful solemnity, and should not be treated as a matter of speculation and idle curiosity. For the greater part of mankind live in neglect of the great duties of religion, if not in open contempt of its most solemn commands. Such has ever been the fact with our fallen race. This vast throng of sinful men for long ages have been pouring through the gates of death, and its dark portals hide them from our further view. What is the condition of this innumerable multitude of impenitent dead? Where are they? and what now is their real state? {ND JNA, RMLA 1.1}

To this question two answers are returned: 1. They are now suffering the torments of the damned. This is the answer of the so-called orthodox creeds. 2. They are now sleeping in the dust of the earth, awaiting the resurrection to damnation. This answer is believed by many candid Bible students to be the harmonious teaching of the Scriptures on this subject. Which of these two answers is the true and proper one? {ND JNA, RMLA 1.2}

1. There is no statement in the Bible relating to the wicked dead in general, where they are in any way represented as in a state or place of torment. Nor is there any instance in the Bible where men are threatened that they shall, if wicked, enter an abode of misery at death. Even the warning of Jesus, in Matt. 10:28, which is thought to contain the strongest proof of the soul's immortality that can be found in all the Bible, says not one word concerning the suffering of the soul in hades, the place of the dead, but relates wholly to what shall be inflicted upon "both soul and body in gehenna" (the Greek word here rendered hell), the place of punishment for the resurrected wicked. {ND JNA, RMLA 1.3}

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2. There being no general statement in the Bible representing the wicked dead as now in torment, and no instance in which the living wicked are threatened with consignment to the furnace of fire till after the Judgment, we now search out the particular cases which may be thought to teach such a fact. There are just two of these cases which may be cited to prove that some of the wicked dead are now in torment; and from these, if at all, the torment of the wicked dead in general must be deduced. These cases are the Sodomites; "set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire;" Jude 7; and the rich man lifting up his eyes in torment; Luke 16:19-31. These are the only cases that can be cited from the Scriptures in proof that the wicked dead are now undergoing the punishment of their sins. {ND JNA, RMLA 2.1}

3. The case of the Sodomites first claims our attention. The text reads thus: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7. The present tense is used throughout the verse. It occurs twice in speaking of the sin of Sodom, and twice with reference to its punishment. This text does not teach that the men of Sodom are now engaged in the sinful acts referred to; why should it be understood to teach that they are now receiving their retribution? Does the apostle mean to say that the Sodomites are now in the flames of eternal fire? The clause, "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire," is modified by the words, "set forth for an example," which immediately precede it. In fact, the real meaning of the apostle in what he says of the sufferings of the Sodomites can only be determined by giving this phrase, "set forth for an example," its proper bearing. To be "set for an example," to wicked men, "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire," one of two things must be true: 1. They must now be in a state of suffering in plain view of the inhabitants of the earth; or,

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2. They must be somewhere in the Scriptures set forth in the very act of suffering the vengeance of fire from heaven. If the first of these views be correct, then the Sodomites are indeed now in torment. But that view is not correct; for the very place where Sodom was burned is now covered by the Dead Sea. {ND JNA, RMLA 2.2}

That the second view is correct, is manifest from Gen. 19:24-28: "Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; and he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. But his [Lot's] wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. And Abraham got up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord. And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." {ND JNA, RMLA 3.1}

Here the Sodomites are set forth for an example in the very act of suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Are they to this day in that fire? Peter bears testimony, and it is the more valuable in this case because the chapter containing it is almost an exact parallel to the epistle of Jude. Thus he says: "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah INTO ASHES condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Pet. 2:6. Peter thus shows that the fire did its proper office upon the men of Sodom, and that they were not in his day alive in its flames. Their case is an example of what God will do to all the wicked after the resurrection to damnation, when fire shall descend out of heaven upon them, and the whole earth become a lake of fire. Rev. 20; 2 Pet. 3; Mal. 4. {ND JNA, RMLA 3.2}

The testimony of Jeremiah, which represents the punishment of Sodom as comparatively brief, must complete this evidence: "For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown

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as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her." Lam. 4:6. {ND JNA, RMLA 3.3}

4. The language of Jude concerning the Sodomites has, therefore, no relation to their condition in death, and cannot be made to furnish evidence that the wicked dead are now in a state of torment. There remains, therefore, the case of a single individual - the rich man - out of which to deduce the doctrine that the wicked dead are now in the lake of fire. This is certainly a fact worthy of note. {ND JNA, RMLA 4.1}

5. The account of the rich man stands at the conclusion of a discourse made up of parables. Thus Luke 15 presents us with the parable of the lost sheep, the ten pieces of silver, and the prodigal son. The sixteenth chapter is made up of two parables; the unjust steward and the rich man and Lazarus. It is true that the account of the rich man and Lazarus is not called a parable by the sacred penman; but the fact is the same with respect to the two cases which precede this; and the three are introduced in the same manner: "A certain man had two sons;" "There was a certain rich man which had a steward;" "There was a certain rich man which was clothed in purple and fine linen." {ND JNA, RMLA 4.2}

6. It is generally admitted that a parable cannot be made the foundation of any doctrine, or be used to disprove doctrines established by plain and literal testimony. But the doctrine of the present punishment of the wicked dead rests upon a single parable, and that parable the case of a single individual. {ND JNA, RMLA 4.3}

7. The proper interpretation of any portion of the Sacred Record will show that it is in divine harmony with the general tenor and plain facts of the whole book. {ND JNA, RMLA 4.4}

8. Three of the dead are here introduced - Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man - and all are represented as in hades. "In hell [Greek, hades] he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Luke 16:23. Hades is the place of all the dead, the righteous as well as the wicked.

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Thus, at the resurrection of the just, they shout victory over death and hades, from whose power they are then delivered. "O Death, where is thy sting? O Grave [Greek, hades], where is thy victory?" 1 Cor. 15:55. The wicked dead are in hades; for at the resurrection to damnation, hades delivers them up. Rev. 20:13. The resurrection of Christ did not leave his soul in hades; i.e., he then came forth from the place of the dead. Hades, therefore, is the common receptacle of the dead. Those who are in hades are not alive, but dead. "DEATH and HADES delivered up the DEAD which were in them." Rev. 20:13. Even the language of Abraham implies that all the party were then dead. To Dives, he says, "Thou in thy lifetime [now passed] receivedst thy good things; but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." Classing himself with dead Lazarus, he adds: "Between US and you there is a great gulf fixed." The rich man then begs that Lazarus may be sent to his brethren, declaring that if one went unto them from the dead , they would repent. And Abraham, denying his request, said that they would not be persuaded, though one rose from the dead ." This scene transpires in hades, the place of the dead; and those who act in it are three dead persons. {ND JNA, RMLA 4.5}

9. A clue to the proper interpretation of this parable is found in verses 29 and 31: "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . . If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." This language directs the living to Moses and the prophets for instruction concerning man's condition in hades. In their testimony will be found adequate warning to the living wicked, and facts of great importance bearing upon the proper interpretation of this peculiar passage. {ND JNA, RMLA 5.1}

10. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the New Testament in Greek. Here an important fact is to be noticed: The Old Testament uses the word sheol to designate the place which in the New Testament

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is called hades. Thus the sixteenth Psalm, written in Hebrew, says, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." Verse 10. The New Testament, quoting this text, and expressing the words in Greek, says, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades." Acts 2:27. The Hebrew term sheol, as used in the Old Testament, is, therefore, the same in meaning with the Greek word hades as used in the New. In other words, the hades of Christ and the apostles is the sheol of Moses and the prophets. {ND JNA, RMLA 5.2}

11. It is well here to observe that the Hebrew word sheol is used in the Old Testament sixty-five times. It is rendered grave thirty-one times. Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Sam. 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6, 9; Job 7:9; 14:13; 17:13; 21:13; 24:19; Ps. 6:5; 30:3; 31:17; 49:14, 15; 88:3; 89:48; 141:7; Prov. 1:12; 30:16; Eccl.9:10; Cant. 8:6; Isa. 14:11; 38:10, 18; Eze. 31:15; Hosea 13:14. It is rendered pit three times, as follows: Num. 16:30, 33; Job 17:16. It is also rendered hell in thirty-one instances, as follows: Deut. 32:22; 2 Sam. 22:6; Job 11:8; 26:6; Ps. 9:17; 16:10; 18:5; 55:15; 86:13; 116:3; 139:8; Prov. 5:5; 7:27; 9:18; 15:11, 24; 23:14; 27:20; Isa. 5:14; 14:9, 15; 28:15, 18; 57:9; Eze. 31:16, 17; 32:21, 27; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2; Hab. 2:5. {ND JNA, RMLA 6.1}

Hades, the New-Testament term for the sheol of the Old Testament, is used eleven times, and in ten of these it is rendered hell: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14. It is once rendered grave: 1 Cor. 15:55. {ND JNA, RMLA 6.2}

12. Moses and the prophets were indeed divinely inspired on every point concerning which they wrote; but on the point respecting which we seek light, they have the special endorsement of our Lord. We may therefore confide in their teachings concerning hades, or sheol, assured that the great facts revealed through them by the Spirit of God, will be found in divine harmony with the teachings of Christ and the apostles. {ND JNA, RMLA 6.3}

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13. The texts quoted above, relating to hades, or sheol, reveal to us many important facts. We learn that sheol is the common receptacle of the dead, whether they are righteous or wicked. Thus Jacob expressed his faith in what should be his state in death when he said, "I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning." Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31. Korah and his company went down into sheol. ii* Num. 16:30, 33. Joab went down into sheol. 1 Kings 2:6, 9. Job was to be hid in sheol, and wait there till the resurrection. Job 14:13; 17:13. All the wicked go into sheol. Ps. 9:17; 31:17; 49:14. All mankind go there. Ps. 89:48; Eccl. 9:10. {ND JNA, RMLA 7.1}

14. Sheol, or hades, receives the whole man at death. Jacob expected to go down with his gray hairs to sheol. Gen. 42:38. Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, went into sheol bodily. Num. 16:30, 33. The soul of the Saviour left sheol at his resurrection. Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:27, 31. The psalmist, being restored from dangerous sickness, testified that his soul was saved from going into sheol. Thus he says, "O Lord, my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave [Hebrew, sheol]: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down into the pit." Ps. 30:2, 3; see also 86:13; Prov. 23:14. He also shows that all men must die, and that no man can deliver his soul from sheol. Ps. 89:48. {ND JNA, RMLA 7.2}

15. The sorrows of hell, three times mentioned by the psalmist, are, as shown by the connection, the pangs which precede or lead to death. 2 Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 18:4-6; 116:1-9. They are, in each case, experienced by the righteous. The cruelty of sheol is there morseless

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power with which it swallows up all mankind. Cant. 8:6; Ps. 89:48. {ND JNA, RMLA 7.3}

16. Those who go down to sheol must remain there till their resurrection. At the coming of Christ all the righteous are delivered from sheol. All the living wicked men are then "turned into sheol," and for one thousand years sheol holds all wicked men in its dread embrace. Then death and sheol, or hades, deliver up the wicked dead, and the judgment is executed upon them in the lake of fire. Compare Job 7:9, 10; 14:12-14; 17:13; 19:25-27; Rev. 20:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:51-55; Ps. 9:17; Rev. 20:11-15. {ND JNA, RMLA 8.1}

17. Sheol, the invisible place or state of the dead, is IN THE EARTH BENEATH. Though it is rendered grave thirty-one times, it is not the word usually so rendered in the Old Testament; for it embraces the interior of the earth as the region of the dead and the place of every grave. Eze. 32:18-32. All the passages which speak of the location of sheol, or hades, represent it as beneath . It is always in the interior of the earth; sometimes it is in the nether parts of the earth. Num. 16:30, 33; Ps. 141:7; Isa. 5:14; 14:9-20; Eze. 31:15-18; 32:18-32. Referring to the fire now burning, in the heart of the earth, which shall at the last day swallow up the earth in its fiery gulf, Moses represents the Almighty as saying, "For the fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest sheol, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Deut. 32:22. Jonah went down into sheol when, in the belly of the whale, he descended into the depths of the mighty waters, where none but dead men had ever been. Jonah 2:2. Korah and his company went into sheol alive; that is, the earth swallowed them up while yet alive. Num. 16. {ND JNA, RMLA 8.2}

18. The righteous do not praise God in sheol. Thus David testifies: "In death there is no remembrance of thee; in sheol who shall give thee thanks?" Ps. 6:5. And Hezekiah, when delivered from death in answer to

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prayer, expresses the same great truth: "I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of sheol; I am deprived of the residue of my years. * * * * Behold, for peace I had great bitterness; but thou hast in love to my SOUL delivered it from the pit of corruption ; for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. For sheol cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day; the father to the children shall make known thy truth." Isa. 38:10-19; Ps. 115:17; 146:1-4. {ND JNA, RMLA 8.3}

19. The wicked in sheol are silent in death. Thus David prays: "Let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in sheol." Ps. 31:17. See also 1 Sam. 2:9; Ps. 115:17, last clause. {ND JNA, RMLA 9.1}

20. Sheol is a place of silence, secrecy, sleep, rest, darkness, corruption, and worms. "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, not be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee; thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." Job 14:12-15. "If I wait, sheol is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness. I have said to corruption, Thou art my father; to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? As for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of sheol, when our rest together is in the dust." Job 17:13-16; 4:11-19; Ps. 88:10-12. {ND JNA, RMLA 9.2}

21. There is no knowledge in sheol. Thus writes the wise man, the Spirit of inspiration bearing testimony through him: "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, no device,

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nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol, whither thou goest." Eccl. 9:4-6, 10. {ND JNA, RMLA 9.3}

22. Such are the great facts concerning sheol, or hades, as revealed to us in the books of "Moses and the prophets." Yet we have the following cases in these same writings in which the dead in sheol, in the nether parts of the earth, converse together, and are comforted or taunted by each other, or in which they weep bitterly, refusing comfort. {ND JNA, RMLA 10.1}

The case of the king of Babylon is a noted instance of this. When he is overthrown, and goes down to sheol, the DEAD (for sheol has no others in its dark abode) are stirred up to meet him. The kings that had been conquered and destroyed by the king of Babylon in the days of his prosperity now rise up from their thrones in that dark abode, and mock him with feigned obeisance as in life they had rendered real homage. Now they taunt him, saying, "Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?" Those that see him shall narrowly look upon him, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?" Isa. 14:9-20. {ND JNA, RMLA 10.2}

23. Pharaoh and his army, slaughtered in battle with the king of Babylon, are set forth in the same manner. The slain upon the field of battle being buried indiscriminately, and friend and foe cast down together into pits, into the "nether parts of the earth," into sheol, "the strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of sheol." And this sheol, in the nether parts of the earth, full of the dead, is contrasted with "the land of the living." These slaughtered soldiers went down to sheol with their weapons of war, and their swords they "laid under their heads." Pharaoh, lying among them, and seeing the multitude of his enemies that were slain, is "comforted" at the sight. See this remarkable prophecy, Eze. 32:17-32; 31:15-18. {ND JNA, RMLA 10.3}

24. Perhaps the case of Rachel is even more remarkable than these. Long ages after her decease and entrance into sheol, a dreadful slaughter of her posterity

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takes place. Upon this, Rachel breaks forth into lamentation and bitter weeping, and refuses to be comforted, because her children are not. Then the Lord says to her, "Refrain thy voice from weeping , and thine eyes from tears ; for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord." Jer. 31:15-17; Matt. 2:17, 18; Gen. 35:18-20. {ND JNA, RMLA 10.4}

25. That Rachel did literally weep and shed bitter tears at the murder of her children nearly two thousand years after her entrance into sheol, no one will assert. Nor will it be maintained that the slaughtered Egyptians and Chaldeans lying in sheol with their swords under their heads were able to converse together in the nether parts of the earth; and that one was literally "comforted," or the other literally "ashamed." Equally difficult is it to believe that the kings who had been overthrown by the king of Babylon were literally seated on thrones in sheol, deep in the earth, and that when he was cast down to sheol they arose from their thrones and mocked him, declaring that he was now become weak as they. Please compare the following texts on the king of Babylon: Jer. 51:39, 57; Dan. 5:1-4, 30; Isa. 14:4-30. {ND JNA, RMLA 11.1}

26. Taking our leave of "Moses and the prophets," whose testimony on this subject has the direct endorsement of our Lord, let us return to the case of Dives and Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31. Lazarus lived in the deepest poverty; too helpless to walk, or even to stand, he was laid at the rich man's gate; he had no other food than the crumbs, perhaps grudgingly bestowed, from the table of the rich man; and no other nurses than the dog which licked his sores. In process of time, death comes to his relief; but his burial is not mentioned, though that of the rich man, who died soon after, is distinctly named. It is likely that the dead beggar, covered with sores, was disposed of with as little trouble as possible; in the sight of man, he had the burial of a dog; but this poor man, forsaken of all earthly friends, and apparently unnoticed of Heaven, had, unseen to

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mortal eye, such a burial as the wealth of the whole world could not command. The angels of God took part as his bearers to that quiet resting place from which, by-and-by, when hades gives up the righteous dead, at the sound of the last trumpet, they shall take him up through the air, to meet his triumphant Redeemer. Till that time, we leave him asleep in Jesus, resting in hope, with Abraham the father of the faithful, and all the ancient worthies who have not yet received their promises. Heb. 11:8-16, 39, 40. {ND JNA, RMLA 11.2}

27. The rich man lived in luxury, faring sumptuously every day. To the eye of all beholders, his lot was envied, and that of the beggar to be despised. But he dies, also and of him it is recorded that he was buried. All that wealth could purchase, all that pride could exhibit of earthly pomp and grandeur, were, no doubt, displayed at his funeral. But there were no angels of God to participate in it. He had lived for himself, neglecting the great preparation for the future. He goes down to hades a lost man, there to wait until the resurrection to damnation. As the Douay Bible reads, "He was buried in hell," i.e. , in hades, or sheol. There he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then, as though calling to mind the littleness of the favors he had bestowed on Lazarus, he asks a favor at the hands of the despised beggar - the smallest indeed that he could ask - that Lazarus should dip the tip of this finger in water to cool his tongue. This being denied, he asks that Lazarus may be sent to warn his brethren. And this also was refused, because they had Moses and the prophets, whose testimony was sufficient. {ND JNA, RMLA 12.1}

28. This scene transpires in hades, or sheol, which, as we have seen, is in the nether parts of the earth. The place is one of darkness and silence, where there is neither wisdom nor knowledge. It is the place of the dead, and those who are therein are called "the congregation the dead." Prov. 21:16. In the utter darkness of hades, how can men see each other? "In the land of

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forgetfulness," how can they remember the events of their past lives? In a place where there is no knowledge, how could Dives know Abraham, whom he had never seen? Where there is no work, nor device, how could he devise a plan to warn his wicked brethren? And in hades, where there is no wisdom, how could Abraham give such wise answers? In hades, where the wicked are silent in death, how could Dives converse? As the righteous cannot praise God in hades, and do not even remember his name, how does it happen that they can so well understand and converse on everything else? {ND JNA, RMLA 12.2}

29. We answer these questions precisely as we do those which arise from the testimony of "Moses and the prophets," to which we are in this parable referred. When Rachel, long dead, is represented as shedding tears and lamenting the murder of her children; when the mighty dead converse with Pharaoh in hades, and he is "comforted" with what he sees in the nether parts of the earth; and when the king of Babylon is mocked by dead kings who rise up from their thrones in hades and taunt him with his overthrow; when we read all this of that place where all is darkness, silence, secrecy, and death -a place within the earth itself, and when we consider that this parable relates to this very place, and cites us to these very testimonies for information on the subject, it becomes evident that one common answer pertains to all these questions. {ND JNA, RMLA 13.1}

30. The dead are personified, iii* and made to speak and

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act in reference to the facts of their respective cases as though they were alive. Why should not the Spirit of God do this when it has seen fit to personify every kind of inanimate thing? Thus the blood of Abel cries to God. Gen. 4. And thus in Job, the depth and the sea are made to speak, and even destruction and death are represented as saying that they have heard the fame of wisdom with their ears . Job 28:14-22. The stone by the sanctuary heard all the words of Israel. Josh. 24. The trees, held an election and made speeches. Judges 9. The thistle proposes a matrimonial alliance, with the cedar. 2 Kings 14; 2 Chron. 25. All the trees sing out at the presence of God. 1 Chron. 16. The stone cries out of the wall, and the beam answers it. Hab. 2. The hire of the laborers, kept back by fraud, cries to God. James 5. Dead Abel yet speaketh. Heb. 11. The souls under the altar, slain for their testimony, and who do not live till the first resurrection, cry to God for vengeance. Rev. 6:9, 10. And, finally, death and hades are both personified -the one riding a pale horse, the other following, and both cutting down mankind. And this personification is still further carried out, when both, as though living enemies, are at last cast into the fire of gehenna. Rev. 6:8; 20:14; 1 Cor. 15; Hosea 13:14. {ND JNA, RMLA 13.2}

31. The apostle Paul has given us the key to all this, when he says of God that he "quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were." Rom. 4:17. And our Lord, in that remarkable discussion with the Sadducees, in which he proved the resurrection of the dead by the fact that God spoke of dead Abraham as though he were alive, gives us this same key, thus: "For all live unto him." Luke 20:38. Abraham, though dead, is spoken of as alive, because in the purpose of God he is to live again. {ND JNA, RMLA 14.1}

32. this parable our Lord illustrates several great truths. 1. The folly and vanity of riches. 2. The worth of true piety, though attended by the deepest poverty. 3. The importance of that great lesson inculcated in the previous parable, to make friends of the mammon of unrighteousness. Luke 16:9; 1 Tim. 6:17-19. The rich man had neglected this, wasting all on himself, though wretched, suffering Lazarus lay at his gate. The folly of this criminal neglect is shown in that part of this parable in which the rich man in his distress, as if remembering the past, is represented as asking of Lazarus the water that could be brought on the tip of his finger, and even this is denied. 4. The certainty of future recompense, and the great contrast that it will make with the present state of things. 5. kind. 6. But to make this text teach that the righteous dead are now recompensed, would be to array a parable against our Lord's plain statement that the recompense of the righteous

15

is at the resurrection of the just. Luke 14:14. 7. Or, to make the passage teach that the wicked dead are now in the lake of fire, is to make one of the Saviour's parables conflict in its teaching with his own grand description of the final Judgement, in which the wicked enter the everlasting fire at the dreadful mandate, "Depart from me, ye cursed." Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11-15. {ND JNA, RMLA 14.2}

33. Lazarus died a beggar. But he rests in hope, an heir to the inheritance promised Abraham. Eternal life and endless felicity are his, and by personification it is said that he is "comforted." Dives lives in the greatest splendor, and dies an impenitent man. The lake of fire is to be his portion. personification, he is represented as in it already. This is in accordance with the teaching of Paul, when he says of God that he calleth things that be not as though they were. That is, God speaks of things that exist only in his purpose just as though they had a present existence; because they shall surely exist; even as he called Abraham the father of many nations, when as yet he had no son. Gen. 17; Rom. 4:16, 17. {ND JNA, RMLA 15.1}

This is the more clearly seen when we consider that to Lazarus, in the silence of hades, there will not be a moment between his death, at the gate of the rich man, and his resurrection to eternal life, and not a moment to the rich man between the closing of his eyes in death, and his opening them in the resurrection to damnation. {ND JNA, RMLA 15.2}

34. That we have done right in hearing the testimony of "Moses and the prophets" on this subject, we have the authority of the parable itself to show. And we have this further evidence of the truth of this exposition that, without doing violence to a single text, we have a divine harmony on the subject of the dead in hades, in all that is said by Moses and the prophets and by Christ and the apostles. {ND JNA, RMLA 15.3}

That those who conversed together are not disembodied spirits, but personified dead men, is further proved by the following facts: 1. Not one word is said of the spirit of any person named. 2. This conversation takes place in hades, which the sacred writers affirm to be in the depths of the earth. 3. The persons named are men that had lived, the one clothed in purple, the other covered with sores, and both were then dead. But these dead men have bodily organs, as eyes, fingers, tongues, etc. But the truth on this point is sealed by the fact that Lazarus could only return to warn the rich man's brethren by being raised from the dead . "Neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead" -Gr., -ean tis ek nekron anaste . It was not whether the spirit of Lazarus should descend from the third Heaven, but whether Lazarus himself should be raised from among the dead ones. This shows that the conversation did

16

not relate to the coming back of disembodied spirits; and in fact that they were not disembodied spirits that here conversed. {ND JNA, RMLA 15.4}

The parable of Dives and Lazarus does not therefore teach the present punishment of the wicked dead. And as there is nothing else on which to rest the doctrine, it must be given up as having no foundation in the Bible. The testimony shows that the wicked dead are asleep in sheol, where they await the resurrection to damnation. The following texts show that the resurrection and judgement of the wicked take place before they are punished; a doctrine in the highest degree reasonable, and sustained by many plain testimonies. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.1}

1. "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the unjust unto the day of Judgement to be punished." 2 Pet. 2:9. The day of Judgment must arrive before the retribution of the ungodly. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.2}

2. "The heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Pet. 3:7. The perdition of ungodly men comes at the Judgment. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.3}

3. "The wicked is RESERVED to the day of destruction; they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Job 21:30. The next scripture will explain this. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.4}

4. "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.5}

5. The wicked are first raised and judged, then afterward cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:11-15. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.6}

6. Vengeance is taken upon all the ungodly together when the Lord comes with his saints. Jude 14, 15. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.7}

7. The wicked are cast into the furnace of fire at the end, and not before. Matt. 13:30, 39-43, 49, 50. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.8}

8. The burning day is the time when the wicked meet their fate. Mal. 4; Ps. 21:9. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.9}

9. The wrath of God waits till the day of wrath. Rom. 2:5-9. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.10}

10. Tribulation to the ungodly comes in connection with the advent of the Saviour. 2 Thess. 1. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.11}

11. The wicked dead are not punished till after the seventh trumpet. Rev. 11:15, 18. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.12}

12. The Judge says, "Depart from me, ye cursed," and then, for the first time, the ungodly enter the furnace of fire. Matt. 25:41. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.13}

i Name: The Rich Man and Lazarus

Book Code: RMLA

Author: Andrews, John Nevins

Author Code: JNA

Date of Publication: ND

Publisher: Review and Herald, Battle Creek, Mich.

Publication Type: Pamphlet

Number of Pages: 16


ii NOTE. The reader will observe that texts are quoted in this tract with words sheol or hades, instead of grave, or pit, or hell; which our English version uses. This is because sheol, or hades, is the word used in the original Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. See the lists above.

iii Webster defines personification thus: "The giving to an inanimate being the figure or the sentiments and language of a rational being; prosopopoeia, as 'Confusion heard his voice.'"
He defines personify thus: "To give animation to inanimate objects; to ascribe to an inanimate being the sentiments, actions, or language, of a rational being, or person, or to represent an inanimate being with the affections and actions of a person. Thus we say, the plants thirst for rain. 'The trees said to the fig-tree, Come thou and reign over us.'" Judges 9.
He defines prosopopoeia , or intense personification, thus: "A figure in rhetoric by which things are represented as persons, or by which things inanimate beings, or by which an absent person is introduced as speaking, or a deceased person is represented as alive and present. It includes personification , but is more extensive in its signification."



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153750
06/29/13 06:19 PM
06/29/13 06:19 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
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Posts: 25,122
Nova Scotia, Canada
How does one misinterpret this?
Quote:

Genesis 6:5 MKJV And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart.
7 And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them.

Genesis 6:5 KJV And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Who said. "I will destroy man"?
God said in Genesis 6:7, "I will destroy man...."

How then can anybody say that God will NOT destroy man???


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Daryl] #153757
06/30/13 12:32 AM
06/30/13 12:32 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Daryl,

I've pointed out that text, and others, multiple times. The answer is either not forthcoming, or the answer that they always give is the same--that God destroys by withdrawing His protection and leaving sinners to their fate via either "natural causes" or by Satan. I expect you'll hear something similar from them regarding the Flood. However, that it cannot have been Satan in this case is clear from the writings of Mrs. White.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power. Others were frantic with fear, stretching their hands toward the ark and pleading for admittance. But their entreaties were in vain. Conscience was at last aroused to know that there is a God who ruleth in the heavens. They called upon Him earnestly, but His ear was not open to their cry. In that terrible hour they saw that the transgression of God's law had caused their ruin. Yet while, through fear of punishment, they acknowledged their sin, they felt no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They would have returned to their defiance of Heaven, had the judgment been removed. So when God's judgments shall fall upon the earth before its deluge by fire, the impenitent will know just where and what their sin is--the despising of His holy law. Yet they will have no more true repentance than did the old-world sinners. {PP 99.3}


Multiple points can be made about that one paragraph above. Among them are these: 1) Satan was afraid for his own life during the flood--which shows Satan was not the one in charge; 2) Mrs. White speaks of it as clearly being a judgment of God; 3) the antediluvians are said to have realized that there is a God "who ruleth in the heavens"; 4) God is said to have closed His ear to their cries; and 5) the time of "deluge by fire" will be much like the time of the deluge by water.

It is clear that God was in control of the elements. Even if one were to argue that God brought in the Flood by merely withdrawing His protection, then one is basically saying that God uses the elements to destroy people. Remember, the wind and the waves "obey His will." God is actively in charge of His universe. There's nothing "passive" about it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153758
06/30/13 01:01 AM
06/30/13 01:01 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: daryl
Who said. "I will destroy man"?
God said in Genesis 6:7, "I will destroy man...."

How then can anybody say that God will NOT destroy man???



Deuteronomy 32:18-30
18 They forgot their God, their mighty savior, the one who had given them life.
19 "When the LORD saw this, he was angry and rejected his sons and daughters.
20 'I will no longer help them,' he said; 'then I will see what happens to them, those stubborn, unfaithful people.
21 With their idols they have made me angry, jealous with their so-called gods, gods that are really not gods. So I will use a so-called nation to make them angry; I will make them jealous with a nation of fools.
22 My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains.
23 " 'I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them.
24 They will die from hunger and fever; they will die from terrible diseases. I will send wild animals to attack them, and poisonous snakes to bite them.
25 War will bring death in the streets; terrors will strike in the homes. Young men and young women will die; neither babies nor old people will be spared.
26 I would have destroyed them completely, so that no one would remember them.
27 But I could not let their enemies boast that they had defeated my people, when it was I myself who had crushed them.'
28 "Israel is a nation without sense; they have no wisdom at all.
29 They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened.
30 Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up.

Who brought on all the disasters? Who brought on the fires, the arrows, the pestilence? WHO? Who sent in the poisonous snakes to bite them? WHO? My Bible says God did this. But then it gives the real answer. God could no longer protect them, and when He had withdrawn, all hell broke loose.

EGW: God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153759
06/30/13 01:02 AM
06/30/13 01:02 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: JNA
This fearful execution of God's judgment is witnessed before the deliverance of the saints; for not less than six of the plagues are poured out prior to the advent of Christ. Rev.16:12-15. {1890 JNA, JEO 90.1}
Does God directly cause the last plagues?
Daryl, Green - do you have an answer?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153761
06/30/13 01:09 AM
06/30/13 01:09 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
God could no longer protect them, and when He had withdrawn, all hell broke loose.

Who was in charge of this "hell?" Let's see, God is in charge of the entire Universe, right? Will you admit this point? Then, if God is not in charge of this "hell," one of two things must be true:

1) God created a hostile environment that will mistreat His creatures if it is not kept in check; OR
2) An enemy of God (Satan or his host) is permitted to be in charge.

In the case of the flood, #2 is not an option. So, in the case of the Flood, it's either #1 or else God Himself was directly in charge of it.

Will you gainsay this?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153763
06/30/13 01:15 AM
06/30/13 01:15 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: JNA
This fearful execution of God's judgment is witnessed before the deliverance of the saints; for not less than six of the plagues are poured out prior to the advent of Christ. Rev.16:12-15. {1890 JNA, JEO 90.1}
Does God directly cause the last plagues?
Daryl, Green - do you have an answer?


It is written...

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
At the general conference of believers in the present truth, held at Sutton, Vermont, September, 1850, I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}


APL, I would urge you not to turn your face from truth. Accept it. Truth will be healing to your soul.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153764
06/30/13 01:17 AM
06/30/13 01:17 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Green, I would urge you not to turn your face from truth. Accept it. Truth will be healing to your soul.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153765
06/30/13 01:19 AM
06/30/13 01:19 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Yes, APL, I have long accepted this truth already that God destroys the wicked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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