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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154059
07/10/13 04:58 PM
07/10/13 04:58 PM
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OP
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No, the plan of redemption is not for "all" of "fallen creation." One must be careful with wording. The plan of redemption is for all of creation--because it will end the sin problem for the entire universe. But it is not for all of "fallen creation," because it is not for Satan and his host. There is no plan in place to redeem them. Animals are not free moral agents, and are no more sinners than are plants, rocks, or trees. I can see an ugly heap of trash beside the road and point to it as a result of sin, but I cannot correctly call the pieces of trash "sinners." They cannot sin. They have not been given the ability to make choices between right and wrong. The same is true of the animals. They have choices, but not moral choices. They are not "free moral agents." They do things sometimes that we might look at as the results of sin, but we cannot correctly call them sinners. Jesus did not die to save them. Jesus died to save US.
Famous atheist Richard Dawkins said: "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." {Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p. 1} Further, he said: "We may say that a living body or organ is well designed if it has attributes that an intelligent and knowledgeable engineer might have built into it in order to achieve some sensible purpose… any engineer can recognize an object that has been designed, even poorly designed, for a purpose, and he can usually work out what that purpose is just by looking at the structure of the object." {Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p. 21}
Green says about animals: "...they do things sometimes that we might look at as the results of sin", but it is not sin!" I guess it only has the appearance of sin! The world looks like it was designed, but it is not!
Is Dawkins right? Is Green right?
Green - you posted a response to my posting quoting Steven Haskell, but then completely ignore what Haskell said. Why? In Haskell's chapter, he says using type and antitype, that all of creation is the target of redemption. Animals, plants, air, water and people. This has to do with your concept of sin. On the EGW CD-ROM, the following phrase is found 74 times, "sin and sinners". Are sin and sinners the same, is there a difference? Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {Ed 26.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154072
07/11/13 03:21 AM
07/11/13 03:21 AM
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APL,
I take it you believe that animals are among those for whom Christ died. Please tell me what my pet chicken needs to do to be saved.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154073
07/11/13 05:00 AM
07/11/13 05:00 AM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 6,368
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APL,
I take it you believe that animals are among those for whom Christ died. Please tell me what my pet chicken needs to do to be saved.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Did you read the excerpt from the article? So far, I have not detected that you have, even though you have replied twice now.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154075
07/11/13 05:12 AM
07/11/13 05:12 AM
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APL,
I take it you believe that animals are among those for whom Christ died. Please tell me what my pet chicken needs to do to be saved.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Did you read the excerpt from the article? So far, I have not detected that you have, even though you have replied twice now. Yes, I've read it. Happy now? But I was responding to your assessment of it. Why? In Haskell's chapter, he says using type and antitype, that all of creation is the target of redemption. Animals, plants, air, water and people. Your answer was a non-answer. Please answer my question in light of what you said. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154083
07/11/13 03:28 PM
07/11/13 03:28 PM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 6,368
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I agree with Haskell. I agree with EGW who states the even the air bore the seeds of death, and that all creation is marred by sin. See Education chapter 3. The work of Christ is to make ALL things new, Revelation 21:5.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154084
07/11/13 03:52 PM
07/11/13 03:52 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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APL, Do you believe Christ came to "redeem" all of creation or all of "fallen creation?" If so, did He die for animals as well as for man? I believe what Christ did is for the benefit of the entire Universe, but it does not mean that He came to redeem animals. First of all, animals cannot "fall." They are most certainly affected by sin, and "all creation groaneth and travaileth together" under sin's weight. But animals are not "sinners." Christ did not come to die to save them. His death will relieve their suffering, in the end, by banishing sin. It will not mean that animals confess their sins (they don't sin) and enter heaven. I agree with Ellen White. She says things like... In place of giving so much attention to pets, lavishing affection upon dumb animals, let them exercise their talent upon human beings who have a heaven to win and a hell to shun. ...
In households and in schools the education of children should not be like the training of dumb animals; for children have an intelligent will, which should be directed to control all their powers. The dumb animals need to be trained; for they have not reason and intellect. The human mind must be taught self-control. It must be educated to rule the human being, while the animal is controlled by the master. The beast is trained to be submissive to his master. The master is mind, judgment, and will for his beast. A child may be so trained as to have, like the beast, no will of his own. His individuality may even be submerged in the one who superintends his training, and the will is, to all intents and purposes, subject to the will of the teacher. {CE 6.1}
The spies upon our Saviour's words dared not, in the presence of the multitude answer this question for fear of involving themselves in difficulties. They knew that while they would leave men to suffer and die rather than to violate their traditions by relieving them upon the Lord's day, a brute which had fallen into danger would be at once relieved, because of the loss that would accrue to the owner if he was neglected. Thus the dumb animal was exalted above man, made in the image of God. {2SP 198.3} So, "dumb animals" were not made in the image of God as man was. "Dumb animals" do not have reason nor intellect. And "dumb animals" do not have a heaven to win nor a hell to shun. Jesus cannot have come to redeem "dumb animals." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154085
07/11/13 05:52 PM
07/11/13 05:52 PM
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OP
SDA
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Did I call animals sinners? no. You say, "They are most certainly affected by sin". PLEASE explain.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154094
07/12/13 03:55 AM
07/12/13 03:55 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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Did I call animals sinners? no. You say, "They are most certainly affected by sin". PLEASE explain. You ask me to explain that which even a child could understand. Why are animals afraid of us? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154096
07/12/13 04:10 AM
07/12/13 04:10 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Did I call animals sinners? no. You say, "They are most certainly affected by sin". PLEASE explain. You ask me to explain that which even a child could understand. Why are animals afraid of us? Blessings, Green Cochoa. So it should be easy for you to explain!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154098
07/12/13 04:38 AM
07/12/13 04:38 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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APL,
It would be easier to explain it to a child. Children understand things simply, without complicating everything. Jesus said if we want to enter Heaven we need to become as little children. Ponder this.
Here's how I would explain it to a six-year-old.
Animals are hurt by our sins because we do not take care of them like we should. We do not take care of the earth, and it is hard for them to live. They are afraid of us because we hurt them. God has allowed them to become examples for us, to teach us how bad sin is. They suffer under the curse of sin, even though they have never sinned themselves.
God tells us the animals are innocent. They were used to teach the children of Israel to believe that innocent Jesus would one day come to die for us, so that we may receive pardon. The animals suffered because of our sins, just as Jesus suffered for us.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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