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Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Johann] #156572
09/24/13 10:27 PM
09/24/13 10:27 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Johann
asygo: Whoever is born of God does not sin. Yet, whoever says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.

So if you ask a born-again non-sinner if he has sin, what would he say? Do you know any born-again non-sinners that I could ask personally?

I know some born-again people, but none of them claim to be without sin.

Johann: When is a person no longer a sinner?

asygo: Sin as a verb or a noun?

Johann: As a noun.

When corruption is turned to incorruption.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156573
09/24/13 11:18 PM
09/24/13 11:18 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Does the passage above describe Jesus withholding truth? Does it imply certain cultivated sinful traits of character are overlooked to be dealt with later on when the sinner/believer is strong enough to deal with it?

In his sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for wilful blindness. Those who have hid their eyes from the truth lest they should be convinced, must exercise repentance toward God for the transgression of his law, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, that their sins of ignorance in the transgression of the Sabbath may be forgiven. {RH, April 25, 1893 par. 10}

We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, but for that which we have resisted and refused. {RH, April 25, 1893 par. 12}

When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. {FW 50.1}


But it looks like there are sins of ignorance for which Jesus has made atonement. If all light is revealed at once, it makes no sense to say, "We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception."

Even though one ray of God's glory fully reveals sin, perhaps He doesn't shed His light on everything all at once.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: asygo] #156580
09/25/13 01:49 AM
09/25/13 01:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Does the light Jesus withhold result in defective traits of character?

Or is she referring to light that has no bearing on character development (i.e. 2300 days, etc).

Are certain cultivated sinful traits of character overlooked to be dealt with later on when the sinner/believer is strong enough to deal with it?

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156584
09/25/13 02:05 AM
09/25/13 02:05 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
In short, you are talking about sin that you did in the past, while John is talking about sin that you have in the present. The distinction is important, and perhaps is the key to understanding what John meant when he said whoever is born of God does not sin (verb). He didn't say that whoever is born of God has no sin (noun).

Good point. The various versions of the word "sin" (sins, sinning, sinned, wickedness, unholiness, unrighteousness, etc) can be used as a verb and a noun. Please label which is which in the following passage:

1 John
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Also, please explain the difference, as it pertains to daily life and the final judgment, between committing sin and having sin.

Is having sin the same thing as knowingly committing sin or ignorantly committing sin?

Did Jesus have to shed His blood to atone for the sin we have?

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156585
09/25/13 02:06 AM
09/25/13 02:06 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
M: We do not, cannot sin while abiding in Jesus. However, we do not lose the freedom or ability to neglect to abide in Jesus and sin. Good news, though, is that we will not sin while abiding in Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.

G: In this case, Huss, Jerome, Wycliffe, Luther, Melanchthon, William Miller and a great host of others, including the majority of "saints" in the church today, never ever experienced "abiding in Jesus." Perhaps this great host also includes Ellen White, who never fully understood some truths that affected her lifestyle. I cannot accept this view, Mike. You need to temper it with some additional information (truths). There is a great difference between choosing to sin (voluntary, willful sin) and sinning ignorantly (involuntarily, without knowledge). It is not possible to abide in Jesus while knowingly going against His law. But it is possible to abide in Him while involuntarily ignorant of some portions of His law, portions against which one may be sinning ignorantly.

Thank you for clarifying this point. I wholeheartedly agree with it. The Bible does not, however, describe born-again, baptized believers ignorantly violating God's law or will. Nevertheless, this does not mean people like the ones you named above are lost or unsaved. God does not hold such people accountable for the sins they commit unknowingly. Jesus paid the price to pardon them.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
To me, Mrs. White says that to abide in Christ, we must have His Word in our hearts. She further explains that experience of His Word entering our hearts in terms of "light" which we do not reject, but cherish and follow. Yet she is careful to speak of this following as "following the light just as far as it shines upon our pathway." In other words, we are not accountable to follow light which we do not have. We have not other human ability beyond that which is given us, and if God Himself will not present all of the light to us, how shall we follow it all?

When Jesus chose to withhold light from people in the past did it result in them sinning?

Please name examples of truth that Jesus chooses nowadays to withhold from people.

Does withholding truth and the inevitable sinning result in defective traits of character?

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
God cannot, and does not, reveal all of the truth to our minds at once. If He did, we would either reject it, or perish outright. We are not yet able to bear it. This being the case, I can be nearly certain that I am sinning in unknown ways, along with any known sins I may have in my life. According to you, then, I could not possibly have any hope of "abiding in Jesus." Do you think you "abide in Jesus?"

People can and do abide in Jesus in accordance with the truth they have embraced. I am one of them.

Do the sins we commit unknowingly because Jesus is withholding truth from us result in defective traits of character?

For example, does ignorantly breaking the Sabbath result in defective traits of character?

Does withholding truth result in unknowingly committing any of the sins Jesus condemned in the sermon on the mount or the sins Paul named in his epistles? If so, please point them out.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156612
09/25/13 05:05 PM
09/25/13 05:05 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." Repeatedly the Bible describes believers not sinning while they are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus. But I hear you saying, no, they are guilty of sinning unknowingly.


I read that verse to mean when we are abiding in Jesus we do not choose to sin. This is not quite the same as we do not sin.
Is that another one? Or can you explain how not choosing to do something is different than not doing it?

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156628
09/25/13 10:58 PM
09/25/13 10:58 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Does the light Jesus withhold result in defective traits of character?

It doesn't cause them, but it doesn't necessarily fix them either.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Or is she referring to light that has no bearing on character development (i.e. 2300 days, etc).

She mentioned the Sabbath. And these are "sins" of ignorance, so they are moral issues, not merely lack of knowledge.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Are certain cultivated sinful traits of character overlooked to be dealt with later on when the sinner/believer is strong enough to deal with it?

God will fix them when He sees fit. There's no point worrying over what we don't know about. Trust that He who began the good work will complete it.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156629
09/25/13 11:10 PM
09/25/13 11:10 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
In short, you are talking about sin that you did in the past, while John is talking about sin that you have in the present. The distinction is important, and perhaps is the key to understanding what John meant when he said whoever is born of God does not sin (verb). He didn't say that whoever is born of God has no sin (noun).

Good point. The various versions of the word "sin" (sins, sinning, sinned, wickedness, unholiness, unrighteousness, etc) can be used as a verb and a noun. Please label which is which in the following passage:

1 John
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

All are nouns except verse 10.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Also, please explain the difference, as it pertains to daily life and the final judgment, between committing sin and having sin.

Having sin is like stepping in a puddle, while committing sin is like being submerged in it. More importantly, unintentional sin is like accidentally stepping on the water, while intentional sin is like diving in.

All sins result in death, no matter what kind. The greatest difference is in the impact on one's soul. Unintentional sin is like Saul of Tarsus, who murdered Christians because he was confused and deceived. When he got accurate information, he asked, "What wilt Thou have me to do?"

Intentional sin is like Saul the son of Kish, who refused to obey God's command. When he got accurate information, he made excuses.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is having sin the same thing as knowingly committing sin or ignorantly committing sin?

Having sin is not so much about what kind of sin a person commits, but the sinfulness of his nature.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Jesus have to shed His blood to atone for the sin we have?

Yes.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: asygo] #156643
09/26/13 03:03 PM
09/26/13 03:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, it is a challenge to agree Jesus withholds truth that results in believers developing sinful traits of character.

It also difficult to agree Jesus shed His blood to atone for sins we resist and refuse to commit.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #156647
09/26/13 05:21 PM
09/26/13 05:21 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Then it is fortunate that I said neither of those things.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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