You and I have found very different things in scripture.
So you think my beliefs are "idols"?

You don't even know me -- so I think you are simply ANTI-ADVENTIST when you express those things you wrote above and direct it at me, possibly because I somehow represent the church in your thinking.

It does puzzle me why people who think Adventist beliefs are "idols" continue in the church? Why won't they find a group of like believers to worship with?


You tend to attribute to me a lot of things that I have never taught, and seem to lump me in with what some others on this forum teach, but which I don't agree with, yet you seem quite troubled that I don't know everything you have posted. To be honest I find what I have read of your posts so far out of harmony with scriptural truths that I'm frankly not interested.

My aim isn't protecting the CHURCH as an identity, but sharing what I believe to be truth, and I haven't "nailed" any laws to the cross.
I believe our SINS, (the record against us) which Jesus took upon Himself were nailed to the cross, and if we leave them there, and consider ourselves dead to sin, and stop insisting upon clinging to those sins and practicing them, but follow Jesus, and find our life in Him, we will have salvation.

God will have His faithful church, and it will be severely shaken and tried and purified. The concern now is the false doctrines that deceive people into thinking they will have a second chance.
It's NOW today -- the day of salvation.
Preparing for the last days isn't about storing up silver or gold, but gaining the gold of faith, and the precious robe of Christ's righteousness.

We have sticky threads in the SDA Church Concerns forum on the tests of a prophet to determine whether or not any particular prophet is a true prophet of God, or a false prophet.

First I was defending James because he spoke rightly in another discussion when he said “"You are too steeped in Ellen White to understand the simple truth of the word of God." Then that discussion was closed because of that. James is not SDA and doesn’t know our history and beliefs very much. So I came to back the truth that he said.

It’s not that I was aiming at you personally. No, by which if you read carefully any of my comments of this subject directing the problem towards “US” by which I include myself. I was suffering from that same blindness. Any idols blinds us as explained in Ez 14:1-10 by which our whole congregation suffers by this one James identified at large.

It is not that EGW was a bad person and everything she said was all false and she didn’t receive any vision from the Lord and etc…. No and I never threw any stoned at her personally or bad talked her. In the contrary I always had a lot of admiration for her, but I understand she is human just like I and I understand the purpose why the Lord used her. Some of her writings have much truth and is very profound. But there are many other things it was what she understood and the Lord did not give her full understanding of everything. Many doctrines that we have today are what the pioneers brought and what she perceived to be true. The fault is more so on us today and the leaders that establish the denominations, and less so EGW or the pioneers. They brought the best that they knew from their times, but we needed to bring it further and test everything continually with scripture. Our grave error is we took the whole lump and declared it all truth, made a foundation with it and built some walls to prevent the members to go out. In this we neglected our solemn duty that EGW and James told us to do – to test all things and not to quote her. And so today, the blindness problem is furthering from generation to generation. This is what we suffer from as a church.


It is true that I don’t know you personally. However, when we have a discussion; it does come apparent that at times you twist scriptures, add things that is not there, and reject other scriptures that challenge your interpretation or beliefs. These are symptom of having an heart idol. As I said many times, we all have heart idols and we will until the Lord perfects us into all the truth. No one has all the truth and no one knows the Lord as He is. Someone that says that he does know the truth as our Church has done, is in grave danger of stagnation and become the Laodicean Church. It is quite a blunt irony that we acknowledge that we are the Laodicean Church and yet think we know/have the truth and others don’t. Christ said “'If ye were blind, ye were not having had sin, but now ye say--We see, therefore doth your sin remain.”

First, I am not anti-adventist. Anyone that knows me in my local church knows that I am not. Just because my studies brought me to different beliefs as Adventist holds, it doesn’t make me an anti-adventist. I don’t go around bashing EGW or the church. I have told you clearly 2 years ago why I stay in the Church.

I think most people that sees different truth than the church turns bitter and do find another group of like believers especially if they reject the Sabbath, it is more easy to find. But I’m not bitter at the church, EGW or anyone inside the church.

Concerning being in this forum, I have at least twice if not three time email Daryl and told him as a friend that it is ok to booth me out of his forum. I like Daryl and I know him and his wife personally. I wouldn’t hold this against him if he decides so. I’m aware that I create a lot of tension in my studying pursuit and I will understand if he does.

I really don’t know what you are referring here. I do address things people have said and I typically quote what the person’s says and respond to it. However, I don’t like to focus on the individual so I often shift into generalizing the problem that typically would include you and me in the generalization.
I am not troubled at all dedication. I’m not here to convict anyone of a particular truth. I am mainly here to study/test doctrines that I have learn in the church with scriptures.
If idols are not left behind before opening scriptures, our idols will twist anything we read to uphold what we believed initially. (Ez 14:1-10) If people brings a different point of view from scriptures that doesn’t agree with our idols or texts that challenges your interpretation, then of course the natural course is to ignore and not be interested in it.

? You uphold all the laws of Moses written in the Pentateuch? I don’t think so -- if you believe like Adventists. From what I read from your posts, you have nailed the law to the cross like any other Adventists has which leaves you foundational-less for it is by the Law that we test all truths.
Our ability to follow Jesus and keep His laws(not sin) lies in hearing His voice – the small still voice that is easily confused with our own voice. His voice will always speak in harmony with the whole fiery law (not only the 10Cs) given to Moses on Mount Sinai at Pentecost. Pentecost main sacrifice is represented by two loaves of leaven wheat bread that needed to be cook in the fire. These loaves of bread represents us, and the leaven is our sins that is still present in us. These breads are only made an acceptable sacrifice if the leaven is all kill by the fire. The fire represents the fiery law uttered by the Lord’s Holy spirit that teaches us His mind and character. This feast was not fulfilled with the Israelites because they refuse to hear the voice of the Lord directly for they were afraid to die. So they begged Moses saying “Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.” Ex 20:19 So they wanted to hear the words of the Lord via Moses and not via the Lord directly.

The Israelites did with Moses what we’re doing with EGW. Moses words were all true; however, no matter how true the words that we receive from others, if it is not heard from the Lord’s fire(Holy Spirit) of what is spoken…our faith will be equal to the faith of the Israelites. AV Ro 10:17 “So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word[rhema, an utterance] of God.” This is how the law gets written in our heart and the law becomes natural to keep. Without hearing the Lord for ourself, the law will remain written on the outside and perfect observance of the law is impossible.

The Lord does have faithful servants that hear His voice and follow Him wherever He leads. They do not have a denomination establish. Just like the Israelites they were to live in a sukka(tent) in the wilderness and be ready to follow the pillar of fire and cloud whenever and wherever it led them to the next encampment where a test was prepared for their next level of discipline and learning. The journey in the wilderness represents the Pentecost(2 loaves of leaven bread) which is where we get sanctified via the baptism of Fire which trains us and ready us to enter the promise land. The Pentecost is between the Passover(justification) and Tabernacle(receiving our inheritance, not a piece of real-estate but the glorification with the full indwelling of the Spirit). They were not allowed to build a house in the wilderness, they had to wait to enter the promise land before they could settle anywhere. This represents that no-one knows the whole truth which our idols blinds us to until it is reveal to us by all the different encampments(tests) the Lord has prepared to surface these idols or falsehood. Any church that has laid a foundation and built some walls is disobeying this law, for they are unable to follow the pillar of fire and cloud anymore.

Any denomination are concern with false doctrines because it jeopardizes their house foundation they have build. The individuals that have not build any houses yet and awaits to enter the promise land to do so, are not afraid of false doctrines when it comes to the surface. When faced with these false doctrines, it does shake us but it is a good thing, because they need to come out. Thought the experience was hard they are grateful that the Lord brought them through that test because without it, they wouldn’t of been aware of their idol(or false doctrine) that was in them. With time as they become aware how the Lord operates in teaching and sanctify them via His utterance, they become more easily moved learning more of His laws(ways) and character at each stop.

Sorry, Elle, but do YOU do that? Where are your animal sacrifices? Now, Paul says that there was a law which was nailed to the cross and abolished (Eph 2:15; Col. 2:14). Which law was that?

Actually neither Eph. 2:15 nor Col. 2:14 is really nailing any law to the cross. The first is speaking of the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles and all the rituals that were imposed on Gentiles if they wanted to be part of the blessings promised to "Jews", that wall and ritual is now torn down, because Christ has made us all one -- fellow heirs of the kingdom. All mouths are stopped because all are sinners and need Christ for salvation. In Christ all can be fellow heirs.
Circumcision was one of the big issues, and it's clear from scripture that it is no longer a requirement. (Romans 3:30, 1Cor. 17:19)

Col. 2:14 talks of "being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (actually debts) that was against us,

So it's our sins (our unpayable debt) that stood against us, that Christ took out of the way by nailing it to the cross.

THAT BEING SAID:

Scripture makes it plain that there are certain things that have ceased.

Sacrifices is one of them.
Hebrews makes it plain that the blood of bulls and goats can't do anything in removing sin, we now look to the BETTER blood, and Better sacrifice (Heb. 9:23,29)

Hebrews points us to the BETTER sanctuary, and the BETTER priest.
We don't need the earthly man-made temple where earthly priests officiate in dealing with the sin problem anymore. We look to Jesus as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

Hebrews 8:13 speaks of the old covenant fading, vanishing away.
The next chapter (nine) identifies the old covenant with the earthly tabernacle and its services, "Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;"

Hebrews then points us to the sanctuary in heaven "not made by human hands" where Jesus entered with His own blood as our High Priest. There sin is truly dealt with and true cleansing takes place.


Indeed to keep all the ceremonial laws in the books of Moses is to remain in the Old Covenant and to be rejecting Christ, His sacrifice and His High Priestly ministry.


But Hebrews also tells us that the Sabbath rest remains (Hebrews 4:9)
The Sabbath embedded in the heart of the ten commandments is God's signature as our Creator and Sanctifier. It remains.

I'm not getting this from that verse. At least, there is more than simply talk of a wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles. The wall of partition is addressed in verse 14, but verse 15 adds to it.



And look at how Mrs. White refers to this verse.



Mrs. White contrasts the two laws.



In the above, Mrs. White does not deny that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross. She distinguishes it, however, from the moral law which was not nailed to the cross.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It's really not worth arguing about since the sacrificial system which pointed forward to the cross, ended when the reality took place. As I pointed out in my last post, other texts show this to be so.

The temple veil was torn thus signifying the earthly temple services were ended, and a new and living way through Jesus was established to approach the throne of God. (See Hebrews 10:20)

So that part I agree with -- I just don't link it directly with Eph. 2. A person can link it indirectly maybe -- but the context does not link it directly.


Ephesians 2:15 is one of the favorite verses other Christians use to tell us the ten commandments are done away with -- so in that respect I think it very important to understand the context and meaning within the verses themselves.

When we study the verses in Ephesians 2 in context we no longer have a problem with any "moral laws" being abolished, it's the whole (Jews are God's people, Gentiles are defiled and unworthy) concept, and all the laws that were placed to restrict the Gentiles from the Jewish communion that were abolished.

This passage is a powerful passage against the "Israelie deception" -- for Jews and Gentiles are ONE in Christ, both heirs of the promises.


Letter to the Ephesians

2:11 Wherefore remember, that you [Ephesians] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision [not bearing in the flesh the sign of the covenant] by that which is called the Circumcision [Jews bearing the sign of the covenant] in the flesh made by hands; [not by the Holy Spirit within the heart and mind of the person]

2:12 That at that time you [Ephesian Gentiles] were without Christ, [the anointed Messiah] being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, [the covenant promises were given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants] having no hope, and without God in the world: [rather a hopeless situation for the Gentiles to be outside the covenant community]

2:13 But now in Christ Jesus [Jesus is the Anointed Messiah] you [Gentiles] who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both [Jews and Gentiles] one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [how did Jesus do this?]

2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity ][hostility], the law of commandments [prescribed rules in accordance with which a thing is done] contained in ordinances; [the Jewish community had a lot of rules that excluded Gentiles from full involvement in their worship] for to make in himself [in Christ] of twain [Gentile and Jew] one new man, so making peace;

2:16 And that he might reconcile both [Gentile and Jew] unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity [the mutual hostility between them] thereby:

2:17 And came and preached peace to you [Gentiles] which were afar off, and to them [Jews] that were nigh.

2:18 For through him we both [Gentile and Jew] have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

However, we are rather off topic --

The topic is on later day prophets.

In scripture we are told in Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."


Donald Ernest Mansell, in his book "The shape of the Coming Crisis" p. 15, relates a parable which defines the role of Ellen White's prophetic gift and purpose well.

He likens the Bible to a high-seas chart by which a pilot guides a ship to its destination. This large high-seas chart is located in a prominent place in the navigational area of the ship. However, as the ship draws close to the coral reef invested waters of a harbor, a little boat approaches the large ship. In the boat is a man who is well informed on the location of the reefs in the waters and he brings with him a harbor map.

Now the harbor map does not replace the high-seas map. The only difference between the two charts is that the harbor map is much more detailed and highlights more clearly where the coral reefs and sandbars are located in that specific harbor.

The pilot would be foolish indeed to discard the harbor map by saying he already has the high- seas map and that is all that is needed, for it already shows where the harbor is.

We believe the ship, of true believers, is going to enter some very dangerous reefs that could cause shipwreck to our faith if we are uninformed of the dangers ahead. God gave messages to Ellen White, to highlight and warn us about these deadly, deceptive reefs so we need not make shipwreck and fall into the clutches of the beast, his image or his mark.

Revelation tells us that the main focus of the devils wrath is against those who keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. Would it not be like a caring God to send special messages to His people who are the brunt of this arch fiend's wrath?

Is it not logical to understand that when God's commandment law was once again seen in it's true setting in the life of a Christian, and as those angels of Revelation began to sound their messages in the 1840's calling a world back to the full gospel, to the worship of the Creator God and to announce the judgment, that God would also make this "LOUD" voice louder with prophetic utterances?

Ellen White gave a clear, forceful picture of the unraveling of end time events based solidly upon the Bible. The Bible gave the "big picture", Ellen White filled in the details as we near the great time of trouble about to burst upon the world. She was given the harbor map that we might not make shipwreck in the final crises.
Her predictions of the activities of the churches are being fulfilled before our very eyes. The churches are uniting upon points of doctrine. There is a reaching out of the hand between Protestants and Catholics.
The wall between church and state is being eroded and attacked.
The Christian churches are all being prepared for the master deception of the coming of a supernatural "Christ" (who they will believe is the true Christ)
God sent the warning through a PROPHET -- rejecting it will conceal the deadly reefs and many will go down so close to the final harbor.

In spite of the clear warnings of Ellen White's as to the set up and take over of the beast and his image, people are attacking and throwing out the harbor map and running to board the ships that think they do not need a harbor map.

This is Bacchiocchi's interpretation (which was a disservice to the church's position and is now widely spread in our ranks), not Ellen White's interpretation.


Yes, and some of these rules were contained in the law of Moses (Ex 12:48, Deut. 23:3).

The scriptures should always be studied in their proper context. I fully agree with you there. But Ephesians 2:15 presents no problem when a proper translation is used. If you read the NIV on this verse, instead of the King James Version, you will get abominable error that you cannot explain away, even via your "wall of partition" interpretation.



Compare that with the solid King James' translation which maintains the integrity of the distinction between the moral law and the ordinances of Moses.



The "commandments contained in ordinances" were abolished "in his flesh" (nailed to the tree, for this is the only time his "flesh" could have been "abolished"). The Ten Commandments were not "ordinances." The ordinances were the sacrificial rituals that prefigured Christ.

There were some changes made at the Cross, that is certain. But prophets continued to prophesy after the Cross, even in Bible times. This is how we have the New Testament with its many prophecies and words of inspiration. If there were ever a cutoff time in which God ceased to inspire prophets to encourage and instruct His people, He has never indicated so. To the contrary, Jesus said "And lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world." John chapter 14 sheds light on His manner of being with us until then.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.