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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#157333
10/18/13 08:37 PM
10/18/13 08:37 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
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Iceland
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Even from my childhood I recall Ellen telling us not to draw a final conclusion on the basis of a single text, but to compare Scripture with Scripture before drawing a conclusion.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157338
10/19/13 01:41 AM
10/19/13 01:41 AM
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APL: There are things God CAN NOT do, and that is to act unrighteously. Everything God does has to be within His law.
asygo: That takes all the risk out of the incarnation, doesn't it? Had Satan believed this, he wouldn't have wasted his time tempting Jesus.
APL: No. Christ's humanity could have sinned.
asygo: If Christ's humanity had sinned, would the Divine Son have become a sinner?
APL: Why don't you start a topic on it and discuss it? No, there is no need. I just wanted to point out that your premise is false, as it leads to an unsound conclusion. If you need a whole new topic to discuss if Jesus would have become a sinner had He sinned, simply to see that God can do anything He wants, that will take much more time than I have. To close this episode, I'll quote an experienced theologian: "Either you believe in an everlasting and almighty God or you don't. Why do you question His abilities?"
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157339
10/19/13 01:55 AM
10/19/13 01:55 AM
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Now, a question for APL: Did God want Saul to kill all the Amalekites? Are you willing to take the Bible as a whole? If so, then I can say, yes, Saul was to kill (murder) all the Amalekites. Was this God perfect plan? NO. In case anyone was wondering, God's perfect plan was to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So anything after that was not His perfect plan for us. However, God can roll with the punches. So when the situation changes, He can change with it to ensure the best possible outcome. He is smart and powerful enough to do that. And He is also loving, so we can be sure that He leads us in a way that will yield optimum results. Therefore, we are hurting ourselves when we think and act contrary to His will; disobedience NEVER makes things better. 1 Samuel 15:18-19
Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord? Why did you swoop down on the spoil, and do evil in the sight of the Lord?”APL, you are correct. God wanted Saul to kill the Amalekites. And given that God is wise and loving, we can be sure that the best thing for Saul to do was to kill the Amalekites. By sparing some of the Amalekites, Saul did "evil in the sight of the Lord." In this case: Kill = good Not kill = evil That's what I think. Would you disagree with Samuel and me by saying that Saul did good by not obeying God's instructions? I hope not.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: asygo]
#157340
10/19/13 02:14 AM
10/19/13 02:14 AM
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Active Member 2020
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I think it would be better to phrase it this way - since the Israelites choose to not have God as their leader, and instead wanted a king, in this situation where God was not directly in control, murdering the Amalekites, which was done by the people and not God, was the way to minimize the damage of the choice that they had made. This is not God will, but His permissive will. Carried out to its natural conclusion would result in the loss and destruction of Israel, which in the end, it did. Killing is ALWAYS evil. Divorce is ALWAYS evil.
asygo - should be have execution in church today? Many people flaunt the transgression of God's Law. Should we have evening vespers, and then have a stoning? IF NOT - WHY NOT? If killing is so good, why have we stopped doing it?
It should also be noted, that killing, lying, coveting, adultery, etc, are symptoms of the disease sin. Sin, like every other disease, will NEVER be cured by treating the symptoms only. It will always fail. I think you and green look at bad behavior as THE sin problem. It is not. Bad behavior is a symptom of the disease, it is not the disease. The 10C only point out the sin problem, Romans 7.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157342
10/19/13 02:31 AM
10/19/13 02:31 AM
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APL, why do you think 185,000 soldiers died in one night?
Also, why do you think Jesus commanded Moses to stone to death the Sabbath-breaker? Have you read all the related Bible texts on the Assyrian attack? The command to kill the Sabbath-breaker. Did God mete out the punishment Himself? WHY did God command the PEOPLE to carry out the execution? Were the people of Israel EVER supposed to fight? WHO was their direct leader? Should we have stonings in church today???? I would prefer it if you would answer my questions directly.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#157344
10/19/13 02:41 AM
10/19/13 02:41 AM
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SDA
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Killing is ALWAYS evil. Divorce is ALWAYS evil. Jesus commanded it. It is not, therefore, always evil. The idea Jesus commanded it to accommodate evil men suggests He is willing to tolerate sin for a season. The idea Jesus is guiltless because He didn't do the killing or divorcing is suspect.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#157345
10/19/13 02:43 AM
10/19/13 02:43 AM
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"The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits." {GC 614.2}
APL, if, as you seem to believe, holy angels exercise "destructive power" by withdrawing their protection and allowing evil angels to wreak havoc - how, then, do evil angels exercise the same destructive power? Do they, like holy angels, withdraw their protection and allow some other entity to wreak havoc?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#157348
10/19/13 03:19 AM
10/19/13 03:19 AM
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Leviticus 24:10 And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father [was] an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish [woman] and a man of Israel strove together in the camp; 24:11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name [of the LORD], and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name [was] Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:) 24:12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be showed them. 24:13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 24:14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard [him] lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death. 24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. Enraged at this decision, he cursed the judge, and in the heat of passion blasphemed the name of God. He was immediately brought before Moses. The command had been given, "He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death" (Exodus 21:17); but no provision had been made to meet this case. So terrible was the crime that there was felt to be a necessity for special direction from God. The man was placed in ward until the will of the Lord could be ascertained. God Himself pronounced the sentence; by the divine direction the blasphemer was conducted outside the camp and stoned to death. Those who had been witness to the sin placed their hands upon his head, thus solemnly testifying to the truth of the charge against him. Then they threw the first stones, and the people who stood by afterward joined in executing the sentence. {PP 407.5}
This was followed by the announcement of a law to meet similar offenses: "Thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." Leviticus 24:15, 16. {PP 408.1}
There are those who will question God's love and His justice in visiting so severe punishment for words spoken in the heat of passion. But both love and justice require it to be shown that utterances prompted by malice against God are a great sin. The retribution visited upon the first offender would be a warning to others, that God's name is to be held in reverence. But had this man's sin been permitted to pass unpunished, others would have been demoralized; and as the result many lives must eventually have been sacrificed. {PP 408.2} "So terrible was the crime that there was felt to be a necessity for special direction from God. The man was placed in ward until the will of the Lord could be ascertained." Why didn't Jesus take this opportunity to teach the Jews the right way to deal with sin and sinners? Or did He? They were acting on His authority. They carried out His will.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#157349
10/19/13 03:34 AM
10/19/13 03:34 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL, why do you think 185,000 soldiers died in one night?
Also, why do you think Jesus commanded Moses to stone to death the Sabbath-breaker? Have you read all the related Bible texts on the Assyrian attack? The command to kill the Sabbath-breaker. Did God mete out the punishment Himself? WHY did God command the PEOPLE to carry out the execution? Were the people of Israel EVER supposed to fight? WHO was their direct leader? Should we have stonings in church today???? I would prefer it if you would answer my questions directly. I would prefer is all the scripture relevant to a topic was taken into consideration. Sound bytes down often work.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157351
10/19/13 04:41 AM
10/19/13 04:41 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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I think it would be better to phrase it this way - since the Israelites choose to not have God as their leader, and instead wanted a king, in this situation where God was not directly in control, murdering the Amalekites, which was done by the people and not God, was the way to minimize the damage of the choice that they had made. This is not God will, but His permissive will. You do not comprehend the facts of the story. God told Saul to kill all the Amalekites, Saul did not kill them all, God was unhappy. You have it backwards. You think Saul wanted to kill them all and God wanted to spare them. As GC pointed out, your comprehension is spotty. But if you are correct, God should have commended Saul for disobeying His command. He could have said, "Saul, your people rejected me, but it's good they have you as king. I told you to kill the Amalekites, but you had a better idea than mine. You're a great guy. I hope you are king for a long time." But that's not how it went. It seems you would have sided with Saul against Samuel. Plus, you have God commanding the people to do somethig hat is against His will. The SOP tells us that we hurt ourselves by performing acts contrary to God's will. So now you have God commanding people to hurt themselves. You imply that it would have been better for them to disobey God's command. This is a strange pit you have gotten yourself into. But maybe I don't understand what you're saying. I'll give the two options Saul had, and you say whether each option is good or evil. Obey God's command and kill all the Amalekites: good or evil? Disobey God's command and don't kill all the Amalekites: good or evil?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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