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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158065
11/07/13 07:41 PM
11/07/13 07:41 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
A: Did you continue reading in the same chapter??? . . . "They were unarmed and unaccustomed to war . . ."

Yes, I read it. However, of the "more than two million souls" (PP 333) it is possible some possessed weapons. Which is a mute point. The fact is they destroyed the Amalekites with the edge of the sword.

Clarke speculates that the Israelites plundered the dead Egyptian soldiers and thereby gained weapons they would later use in battles against the Amalekites, Amorites, and others.
Exactly. And they did not need to plunder the Egyptians of their weapons. The Israelites were never supposed to fight.

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158066
11/07/13 08:04 PM
11/07/13 08:04 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
The Israelites were never supposed to fight.

But God blessed them when they fought?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158067
11/07/13 10:59 PM
11/07/13 10:59 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
The Israelites were never supposed to fight.

But God blessed them when they fought?
Did you read the message immediately before this one????????? Shall I quote it again? OK.

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158071
11/08/13 12:54 AM
11/08/13 12:54 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
We don't know exactly how the battles were fought, but they were fought by God's people and by the angels of God.

Angels of heaven shielded Jonathan and his attendant, angels fought by their side, and the Philistines fell before them.—PP 623.
Angels of God fought by the side of Jonathan, and the Philistines fell all around him. Great fear seized the host of the Philistines in the field and in the garrison. . . . The earth trembled beneath them, as though a great multitude with horsemen and chariots were upon the ground prepared for battle. Jonathan and his armor-bearer, and even the Philistine host knew that the Lord was working for the deliverance of the Hebrews.—4aSG 70. {TA 119}

When the Amorite king refused this courteous solicitation, and defiantly gathered his hosts for battle, their cup of iniquity was full. God would now exercise his power for their destruction, even as he had fought against Pharaoh and his hosts. ... Again the great Commander of nations had bidden his people "Go forward." In obedience to the divine command they immediately crossed the river Arnon, and advanced upon the foe. An engagement took place, in which the armies of Israel were victorious; and following up the advantage gained, they were soon in full possession of the country of the Amorites. It was the captain of the Lord's host who vanquished the enemies of his people. {ST, November 4, 1880}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #158078
11/08/13 01:55 PM
11/08/13 01:55 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
It's a fact that Jesus has a metal sword?!


You're misstating my words, or those of Ellen White, to add information that is not provided. He may have a metal sword. I don't know. Whatever kind of sword it is, it can be "whetted."
It appears you misstated my question.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #158085
11/08/13 04:09 PM
11/08/13 04:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Rosangela, thank you for joining this discussion. It may be helpful to know APL believes any and all inspired passages (Bible and SOP) which portray God or holy angels causing disease, death, and destruction must be interpreted to mean Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted either nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to cause it. He also believes God commanded holy men to kill criminals and combatants because of the hardness of their hearts.

PS - He also tends to be sarcastic. And, as GC observed, he tends to avoid questions and comments. He seems unwilling to answer questions directly opting to ask new questions instead. He quotes EJW as an authority on the subject.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158088
11/08/13 04:29 PM
11/08/13 04:29 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Mike, it's interesting that APL quotes Waggoner as saying that those who thus fought are an example of unbelief, when Hebrews 11 cites them as an example of faith.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158091
11/08/13 05:49 PM
11/08/13 05:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I think I finally understand his point of view. He cannot fathom the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, or holy angels causing harm. I can appreciate this. I prefer to think of the inhabitants of heaven as peace-loving beings. But the Bible and SOP depict times when they are forced to punish sinners. It's not my favorite part of history but I cannot, in good faith, conclude it didn't happen. The idea that such passages must be interpreted to mean something other than what is clearly stated is unsettling. I must take God at His word even when it portrays Him punishing sinners.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158092
11/08/13 06:25 PM
11/08/13 06:25 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
The wicked, Satan, as the sword, the rod of God’s anger

Isa_10:5 tells us that the Assyrian power was for a time the rod of God’s anger against apostate Israel, but the time came for the tables to turn and another rod would be employed to deal with the godless Assyrian. This too was prophesied:

Wherefore it shall come to pass, [that] when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks (Isa_10:12).

When God delivers the impenitent over to evil forces, those forces are thought of as God’s weapons of punishment.

Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, [which is] thy sword (Psa_17:13).

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme (1Ti_1:19-20).

Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate (Psa_34:21).

This is confirmed in the testimonies of the Spirit:

David had neglected the duty of punishing the crime of Amnon, and because of the unfaithfulness of the king and father and the impenitence of the son, the Lord permitted events to take their natural course, and did not restrain Absalom. When parents or rulers neglect the duty of punishing iniquity, God Himself will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise which will punish sin with sin {PP 728.1}.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158093
11/08/13 06:54 PM
11/08/13 06:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3}

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