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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: kland] #158196
11/11/13 05:27 PM
11/11/13 05:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
The long, lingering first death we experience is not the "wages of sin". It is the result of Jesus 1) implementing the plan of salvation and 2) denying sinners access to the fruit of the tree of life.

1. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the Son of God." {1SM 230.1}

2. Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

Note especially the fact sinners would live forever if they could access the fruit of the tree of life. This fact refutes the idea sin causes death. Being unable to eat fruit from the tree of life is what causes the first death. And the lake of fire is what causes the second death.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: APL] #158197
11/11/13 05:30 PM
11/11/13 05:30 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Sin is THE cause of death.


This is a small technicality, but may be significant to some minds: Sin is THE cause of the death sentence.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158198
11/11/13 05:31 PM
11/11/13 05:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Jesus willingly suffered and died on the cross. It makes me terribly sad. He also willingly causes, commands, or permits natural disasters. It makes Him sad. It makes me sad. But I am glad He is in control - not sin, not nature, not evil angels.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Green Cochoa] #158202
11/11/13 06:18 PM
11/11/13 06:18 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Sin is THE cause of death.


This is a small technicality, but may be significant to some minds: Sin is THE cause of the death sentence.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
And there lies the issue! Does sin cause sickness, disease, death, or does God? This really gets to the heart of the great "Controversy". Is sin the heinous thing that it is because it destroys God's creation, or is does sin just make God mad and thus needs to execute the sinner, because sin will not kill the sinner. James 1:15 "Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." Green would like us to believe that sin does not bring forth death, but sin brings forth the sentence of death. Perhaps the devil was right! Eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge will not kill you. It will only make God mad and HE will kill you. 1 Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." If God is the cause of death, then is God the enemy? I think not! Christ was "slain by the sin of the world." {DA 772.2} Christ was not slain by God. Mark 15:34 "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" This does not say, why are you torturing me, why are you killing me. It says what I have been saying, that the wrath of God is His giving up, letting go, the "hiding of His face". Oh what we can see Father as He is revealed by Jesus.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: APL] #158203
11/11/13 06:29 PM
11/11/13 06:29 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Transgression is disobedience to the commands of God. Had these commands always been obeyed, there would have been no sin. The penalty of transgression is always death. Christ averted the immediate execution of the death sentence by giving His life for man. . . . Justice requires that men shall have light, and it also requires that he who refuses to walk in the Heaven-given light, the giving of which cost the death of the Son of God, must receive punishment. It is a principle of justice that the guilt of the sinner shall be proportionate to the knowledge given, but not used, or used in a wrong way. God expects human beings to walk in the light, to testify before angels and before men that they acknowledge Christ as the great propitiation for sin and that they respect His sacrifice as their greatest blessing. . . . {HP 153.3}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Green Cochoa] #158206
11/11/13 09:07 PM
11/11/13 09:07 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Western, USA
Yes Green - HOW is the sentence executed? READ GC 36.1: God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.

You say God is an executioner. EGW says NO. You say sin does not cause death, as did Satan BTW. EGW says yes it does.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158209
11/11/13 09:59 PM
11/11/13 09:59 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus willingly suffered and died on the cross. It makes me terribly sad. He also willingly causes, commands, or permits natural disasters. It makes Him sad. It makes me sad. But I am glad He is in control - not sin, not nature, not evil angels.

EGW:It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: APL] #158210
11/11/13 10:47 PM
11/11/13 10:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL, no one is disagreeing with your quote. Please believe me. But there is more to it. The following passages make it clear Jesus also employs nature:

Quote:
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud, into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks, and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. The saints are preserved in the earth in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. {1SP 84.4}

Both are true.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158211
11/11/13 10:53 PM
11/11/13 10:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The long, lingering first death we experience is not the "wages of sin". It is the result of Jesus 1) implementing the plan of salvation and 2) denying sinners access to the fruit of the tree of life.

1. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the Son of God." {1SM 230.1}

2. Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

Note especially the fact sinners would live forever if they could access the fruit of the tree of life. This fact refutes the idea sin causes death. Being unable to eat fruit from the tree of life is what causes the first death. And the lake of fire is what causes the second death.

Sin is not the cause of death. Sinners would live forever with sin if they ate regularly from the tree of life. Punishment will be the cause of second death.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158215
11/12/13 12:50 AM
11/12/13 12:50 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, no one is disagreeing with your quote. Please believe me. But there is more to it. The following passages make it clear Jesus also employs nature:

Quote:
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud, into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks, and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. The saints are preserved in the earth in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. {1SP 84.4}

Both are true.
He employs nature by not holding back that which would cause harm. Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

HOW did God sent the fiery serpents?
Originally Posted By: EGW
Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}
This is exactly as it says in GC page 36. God is not the executioner, but he removes his protection.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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