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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158377
11/16/13 10:09 PM
11/16/13 10:09 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
The sin must be a real and physical thing, else how could Christ be "made" to be sin?

1) Who said that the text means Christ was made to be sin at His birth? I understand it to mean He was made to be sin on the cross.
2) "Sin" is in opposition to "righteousness." If sin was physical, so would be righteousness.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158379
11/16/13 11:32 PM
11/16/13 11:32 PM
Johann  Offline
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In the Tuesday section of the SS lesson for next Sabbath EGW tells us why Jesus came to this world . That gives us what we need to know.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #158385
11/17/13 12:33 AM
11/17/13 12:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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It seems as though Jesus bore the sins of the world His entire life while on earth:

Quote:
As one with us, He must bear the burden of our guilt and woe. The Sinless One must feel the shame of sin. . . {DA 111.4}

. . . With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. {DA 116.4}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158392
11/17/13 02:01 AM
11/17/13 02:01 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Green and asygo say that we do not learn much about the character of God from the life of Christ on this earth.

That's not what I said. What I said is that you have a very small percentage of the total data related to "the life of Christ on this earth." You obviously do not comprehend the distinction. It's subtle, but significant. More algebra skill may be called for.

Given your documented history of miscomprehension, I don't know how anyone can take your statements too seriously.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #158393
11/17/13 02:02 AM
11/17/13 02:02 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
To try to make asygo's metaphor work, think more of a father working with his child for years. But when the child is 70 years old, does the father still need to take the knife out of the child's hand?
Originally Posted By: asygo
Two problems:

1. If I was the father, and my son is playing with a knife, you better believe he'll be punished long before he hits 70.

2. God doesn't take the knife from our hands. He wants us to let go of the knife because we trust that His commands are for our good, even if we don't understand why. That's the plan of redemption. The kid throwing a tantrum because his father took away his knife knows nothing of the Gospel. And if you think humanity is wiser than that, look for a baby who cries uncontrollably after having a piece of garbage taken out of its mouth. Then consider how many throw a tantrum when they can't commit a sin they love.
Originally Posted By: kland
But do you kill your son as punishment? Or do you agree killing cannot be "punishment"?
Originally Posted By: asygo
Killing is not punishment in terms of educating the guilty. However, it can certainly be educational for others. See Nadab and Abihu.
Originally Posted By: kland
Ok, so do you kill your son for educating your other children what will happen to them if they should dare play with knives?

I wouldn't do that with my son. I'm more likely to let the results of his own foolishness speak for itself.

But that's not what happened to Nadab and Abihu, was it? They did not die of old age.

And if you think it was Satan who stepped in to make an abrupt end to their profane sacrifice, then you and I don't agree on Satan's intentions.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158394
11/17/13 02:20 AM
11/17/13 02:20 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, it seems like you believe:

1. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.

2. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.

3. Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because Moses mistakenly believed killing is right.
If you want to know the real character of the God of the OT, then look at Jesus. If your picture does not fit Jesus, then there is something wrong with your picture.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part:
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I have been known.
13 But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158395
11/17/13 02:48 AM
11/17/13 02:48 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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Posts: 25,121
Nova Scotia, Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
The problem with this is that it ignores so much of scripture which depicts sin as not a legal problem, but an illness problem.

Sin is an illness problem?

Was the original sin an illness problem?

Also, show me where Scripture depicts sin as an illness problem.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Daryl] #158399
11/17/13 03:54 AM
11/17/13 03:54 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Originally Posted By: APL
The problem with this is that it ignores so much of scripture which depicts sin as not a legal problem, but an illness problem.

Sin is an illness problem?

Was the original sin an illness problem?

Also, show me where Scripture depicts sin as an illness problem.
How many scripture references do you want?

Hebrew parallelism:
Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.

Isaiah 53:3-5 He was despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity; and as one from whom others hide their faces he was despised, and we held him of no account. 4 Surely he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases; yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed.

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Jeremiah 31:30-33 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eats the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. 31 Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband to them, said the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrew parallelism
Psalms 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

What happened to man right at the beginning? And not only man, but all creation?
Genesis 3:14-18
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

"remission of sins" - remission, Greek word, Aphesis. If you have cancer, do you want the cancer pardoned, or do you want the cancer to go into "remission"?
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Forgive - Greek word Aphiemi, rooted with Aphesis, to remove, remit, send away. It is something that happens in the offender, not the offended. Not our common useage of the term forgive.

Originally Posted By: EGW
God's promise is, "Ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13. {SC 43.1}

The whole heart must be yielded to God, or the change can never be wrought in us by which we are to be restored to His likeness. By nature we are alienated from God. The Holy Spirit describes our condition in such words as these: "Dead in trespasses and sins;" "the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;" "no soundness in it." We are held fast in the snare of Satan, "taken captive by him at his will." Ephesians 2:1; Isaiah 1:5, 6; 2 Timothy 2:26. God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {SC 43.2}

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ's servants are to follow His example. As He went from place to place, He comforted the suffering and healed the sick. Then He placed before them the great truths in regard to His kingdom. This is the work of His followers. As you relieve the sufferings of the body, you will find ways for ministering to the wants of the soul. You can point to the uplifted Saviour, and tell of the love of the great Physician, who alone has power to restore. {COL 233.3}
Originally Posted By: EGW
The very essence of the gospel is restoration, and the Saviour would have us bid the sick, the hopeless, and the afflicted take hold upon His strength. {DA 824.5}
Why did Jesus spend most of His time healing? Because it best represents the work of the Gospel - restoration.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #158401
11/17/13 04:45 AM
11/17/13 04:45 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Green and asygo say that we do not learn much about the character of God from the life of Christ on this earth.

That's not what I said. What I said is that you have a very small percentage of the total data related to "the life of Christ on this earth." You obviously do not comprehend the distinction. It's subtle, but significant. More algebra skill may be called for.

Given your documented history of miscomprehension, I don't know how anyone can take your statements too seriously.
What is the difference between "not much"(me) and "very little"(asygo)? I do have an engineering degree. This discussion arose around a quote in volume 8 of the testimonies, to which asygo said,
Originally Posted By: asygo
IIRC, APL's "several paragraphs" were quoted from 8T, a compilation of quotes from various sources. Find the primary source of "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son" and read the context.
He did not know that the testimonies were indeed the primary source of the quote. And if he had read the quote in context, then he would have known that what I said was indeed correct. Shall I quote the section in the primary source?
Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him."
John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin.
{8T 286.3}

Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man.
{8T 286.4}

"The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth."
John 1:14. {8T 286.5}

"Unto the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world,'' He said, "I manifested Thy name," "that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them."
John 17:6, A. R. V., 26. {8T 286.6}

"Love your enemies," He bade them; "bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven;" "for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." "He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."
Matthew 5:44, 45; Luke 6:35, 36. {8T 286.7}
What she is talking about is the life of Christ on this earth. In that other thread, I also quoted from the book, "Ministry of Healing" (Daryl - you might like to note the title).
Originally Posted By: EGW
As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. The outshining of the Father's glory, "and the express image of His person," Jesus, as a personal Saviour, came to the world. As a personal Saviour He ascended on high. As a personal Saviour He intercedes in the heavenly courts. Before the throne of God in our behalf ministers "One like unto the Son of man." Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 1:13. {MH 418.1}

Christ, the Light of the world, veiled the dazzling splendor of His divinity and came to live as a man among men, that they might, without being consumed, become acquainted with their Creator. Since sin brought separation between man and his Maker, no man has seen God at any time, except as He is manifested through Christ. {MH 419.1}

"I and My Father are one," Christ declared. "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." John 10:30; Matthew 11:27. {MH 419.2}

Christ came to teach human beings what God desires them to know. In the heavens above, in the earth, in the broad waters of the ocean, we see the handiwork of God. All created things testify to His power, His wisdom, His love. Yet not from the stars or the ocean or the cataract can we learn of the personality of God as it was revealed in Christ. {MH 419.3}

God saw that a clearer revelation than nature was needed to portray both His personality and His character. He sent His Son into the world to manifest, so far as could be endured by human sight, the nature and the attributes of the invisible God. {MH 419.4}
She is speaking of Christ's life as a human, on this earth. She when on to speak about Christ's revelations to His disciples, quoting John 14. These men knew the Old Testament, and a I dare say better that most of us! And they were confused about the character of God. Christ cleared up the confusion, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". And John 16, "The Father love you Himself"! Yes, our view of the OT God needs to be looked at with the what we see through the glasses of the NT Christ. But as asygo says, don't trust what I say, read the evidence for your self.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158402
11/17/13 05:24 AM
11/17/13 05:24 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
The sin must be a real and physical thing, else how could Christ be "made" to be sin?

1) Who said that the text means Christ was made to be sin at His birth? I understand it to mean He was made to be sin on the cross.
2) "Sin" is in opposition to "righteousness." If sin was physical, so would be righteousness.

1) Show me this from scripture or EGW. The fact still remains, that he bore our sins "in His body". Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Hebrews 2:17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2) There is "sin" and there are "sins". "sins" is the behavior. "Sin" is the disease. Christ bore ouf "sin", but never committed any "sins", he was spotless. EGW puts it this way, "By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin." Notice the word structure.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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