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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#158791
11/28/13 02:41 AM
11/28/13 02:41 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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1. How does Jesus prevent sin from killing us every time we sin? 2. Is He preventing the first death or the second death? 3. Is Jesus preventing sin from killing evil angels? 4. How does sin kill sinners? 5. If sin kills sinners, why will Jesus employ fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness? 6. If sin kills sinners, why would eating from the tree of life enable them to live forever?
7. What would happen to a sinner who lied about reaching the summit of a mountain if Jesus were to allow sin to run its natural course? How would sin kill him? Would sin use the forces of nature to kill him (like a flood, a fire, a plague, or something of the sort)?
A: The understanding of sin is needed in order to understand the answers to these questions.
Please use your favorite definition to answer the questions above.PS - I believe "sinning" defined means breaking the law of God in thought, word, or deed. I realize you believe in "sin" as a state of doing (thinking, speaking, acting)" and "Sin" as a state of being. Is there also a sense in which "sin" acts like a sentient being and uses the laws of nature to punish sinners? Or, is there a cooperation between sin and the laws of nature so that nature obeys "sin" and acts to punish sinners (when Jesus withdraws His protection)? I'm not speaking of the usual cause and effect of sinning (drink alcohol and get cirrhosis of the liver).
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158794
11/28/13 03:40 AM
11/28/13 03:40 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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Understanding sin as just thought, word, or deed offers no explanation why all of creation is suffering. How does your thought, word, or deed cause cancer in animals? Perhaps it is just God punishing creation? Do you have an explanation?
No, sin is not "sentient". Yes, there is a cause and effect with sin. As EGW says, "...sin and disease bear to each other the relationship of cause and effect. {CH 25.2} Which rules out God as the cause of any disease. I suggested to you that you listen to several presentations. Have you done that yet? I suspect not.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#158800
11/28/13 04:48 AM
11/28/13 04:48 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Daryl - no response to this Post?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158819
11/28/13 04:54 PM
11/28/13 04:54 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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1. How does Jesus prevent sin from killing us every time we sin? 2. Is He preventing the first death or the second death? 3. Is Jesus preventing sin from killing evil angels? 4. How does sin kill sinners? 5. If sin kills sinners, why will Jesus employ fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness? 6. If sin kills sinners, why would eating from the tree of life enable them to live forever? 7. What would happen to a sinner who lied about reaching the summit of a mountain if Jesus were to allow sin to run its natural course? How would sin kill him? Would sin use the forces of nature to kill him (like a flood, a fire, a plague, or something of the sort)?
A: The understanding of sin is needed in order to understand the answers to these questions.
M: Please use your favorite definition to answer the questions above.
A: Understanding sin as just thought, word, or deed offers no explanation why all of creation is suffering.
Here's an inspired definition of 'sin": It is the privilege of every sinner to ask his teacher what sin really is. Give me a definition of sin. We have one in 1 John 3. "Sin is the transgression of the law." Now this is the only definition of sin in the whole Bible. {1SAT 228.2}
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." This is the only definition of sin given in the Holy Scriptures, and we should seek to understand what sin is, lest any of us be found in opposition to the God of heaven. We are required to be in a position of obedience to all of God's commandments. {RH, July 15, 1890 par. 2}
Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}
The only definition of sin given in God's Word is transgression of the law. It is not excusable, and has no defence or justification. It will be the final and eternal condemnation of the originator of sin and all the angels who united with him in the heavenly courts, who joined the confederacy of evil, identifying themselves with the great apostate. . . . Sin entered the world by the defection of one who stood at the head of the holy angels. {PC 167.5} The world is in a sorry state because of what sinners (evil angels and evil people) think, say, and do - not because of what sin thinks, says, and does. Sin cannot do anything. It's not a sentient being.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158820
11/28/13 04:56 PM
11/28/13 04:56 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, please respond to 158783, 84. Thank you.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158825
11/28/13 05:43 PM
11/28/13 05:43 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The world is in a sorry state because of what sinners (evil angels and evil people) think, say, and do - not because of what sin thinks, says, and does. Sin cannot do anything. It's not a sentient being. Matthew 8:28 AKJV And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. Can we tell what the demoniacs were like by what they thought, what they said, and what they did? NO
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#158837
11/29/13 02:44 AM
11/29/13 02:44 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, what is your definition of sin? Please use it to answer the 7 questions posted above.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158838
11/29/13 02:45 AM
11/29/13 02:45 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, please respond to 158783, 84. Thank you.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158843
11/29/13 06:08 AM
11/29/13 06:08 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL, what is your definition of sin? Please use it to answer the 7 questions posted above. Sin is transgression of the law. What law? Galatians 3 says that law was added because of transgression. What law was added, EGW says, BOTH the ceremonial law and the moral law of 10 commandments. And she says, in particular the moral law. So if sin is transgression of the law, but the 10 commandments were added because of transgression, then we can't use circular logic to say that sin is transgression of the 10 commandments. Yet the 10 commandments do point out sin! The law that was transgressed was the very law of our being, how we were made was changed, a change to God's workmanship. This you can not do. The system is to finely tuned and not one jot or tittle can be changed, or else the system will ultimately fail and collapse. The system will die. The result of transgression is death. Telling lies is just a symptom of the underlying disease of sin. The simple telling of a lie is not the main problem, it is the underlying transgression of the system that is the cause of the destruction. Your simple example of telling a lie and whack, your dead, is too simplistic and does not view the system as a whole. This is also why lying, adultery, coveting, idolatry and killing are all part of the same issue and are not cleanly separable as you would like them to be. They are not apples and oranges.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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