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What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15899
09/19/05 04:08 PM
09/19/05 04:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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This following exchange between Rosangela and Tom appears on another thread. I am reposting it here for further discussion:

quote:
Rosangela wrote:

You seem to believe that the born-again Christian has a carnal and a spiritual nature, and a carnal and a spiritual mind coexisting side by side. I don’t agree with this. In my opinion at the new birth the carnal mind ceases to exist and the carnal nature begins to be transformed. Many are of the opinion that the Christian has two natures, the carnal and the spiritual, and that there is a constant conflict between the two. I don’t believe this. I believe the Christian has just one nature, the carnal nature, and that this nature is day by day transformed in the similitude of the divine nature.

Tom wrote:

Rosangela, how do you understand being a partaker of the divine nature?

Rosangels wrote:

Tom, the divine nature is the nature of God, which is love. To be a partaker of the divine nature is to be a partaker of this love. God implants His love in us, and this love gradually changes the whole life into the divine similitude.


Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15900
09/19/05 04:29 PM
09/19/05 04:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Rosangela, I agree with you that our carnal mind (i.e., our "old man") is crucified the moment we are born again. In other words, I believe we are born again without the carnal mind of the old man. And, since I believe the carnal mind of the old man is the sum total of our former sinful traits of character, I also believe we are born again without our former defective traits of character.

Therefore, I do not believe a born again believer has two minds (the mind of the old man and the mind of the new man). Paul wrote:

Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians
4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Titus
3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

In these passage Paul says it is our mind (i.e., character) that is renewed or transformed - not our sinful nature. Character and sinful nature are two totally separate aspects of our human make up. Jesus will not replace our sinful nature until He returns. In the meantime, we are stuck with it. By the grace of God we may control it, but we cannot conquer or eliminate it or transform it into a sinless nature.

Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15901
09/20/05 01:07 PM
09/20/05 01:07 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
Therefore, I do not believe a born again believer has two minds (the mind of the old man and the mind of the new man).
Mike,
I had said this because in the excerpt of your manuscript you say:
quote:
We are born again with both the sinless mind of the new man and the sinful mind of fallen flesh.
Does what you are saying now mean that you have changed your mind since you wrote the manuscript, or do you have a different thing in mind?

quote:
In these passage Paul says it is our mind (i.e., character) that is renewed or transformed - not our sinful nature. Character and sinful nature are two totally separate aspects of our human make up. Jesus will not replace our sinful nature until He returns. In the meantime, we are stuck with it. By the grace of God we may control it, but we cannot conquer or eliminate it or transform it into a sinless nature.
Mike,
Mind, heart, nature and character are all synonyms, and Ellen White so considers them.

“Through the grace of Christ an amazing transformation is taking place in the corrupt hearts of men. The work wrought in the characters of sinners through the grace of Christ, is a greater work than to perform a miracle upon the bodies of men. The old, carnal nature dies, and a new creature appears after the likeness of Christ.” {RH, December 19, 1893 par. 11}

“Thus the carnal nature is transformed, renewed in holiness after the image of Christ's righteousness and true holiness.” {PH002 25.2}

“Christ says: Open the door of your heart; give Me entrance, and I will make you a child of God. I will transform your weak, sinful nature into the divine image, giving it beauty and perfection.”{TMK 106.3}

“That which was to the carnal mind a desolate wilderness, to the spiritual mind becomes a land of living streams. That which to the unrenewed heart appeared a barren waste, to the converted soul becomes the garden of God, covered with fragrant buds and blooming flowers.” {CE 79.2}

Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15902
09/20/05 02:19 PM
09/20/05 02:19 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
There are similarities, but the words mean different things. I agree about "mind" and "heart" being synonyms. "Character" seems to me to be a bit different, in that it is less transient than "mind" and "heart" may be. That is, "mind" and "heart" are less specific in their usage. "Nature" can mean many different things. It may mean "character", but it may also mean "flesh", which is quite a different thing. Christ partook of our flesh, so in that sense it can be said He to our nature ("He took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature") but Christ did not take our mind, heart or character.

Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15903
09/21/05 03:25 AM
09/21/05 03:25 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Rosangela, I agree with Tom’s observations. Sister White, at times, used the words “nature” and “character” interchangeably. At other times she used them in contrast to one another. Ralph Larson wrote a compilation called, “The Word Made Flesh” (or something like that), and in it he quotes all the places where Sister White used the word “nature” in the different ways I mentioned above.

If it were possible to completely rid our nature of its sinful inclinations and propensities, then it wouldn’t be necessary for Jesus to replace it with a sinless one when He returns. But, as it applies to our character, Jesus will not change it when He returns. Our character must be changed now, in this lifetime.

quote:
Does what you are saying now mean that you have changed your mind since you wrote the manuscript, or do you have a different thing in mind?

No. Remember, I believe the mind of the old man (i.e., the sum total of the sinful traits of character we developed before we experienced the miracle of rebirth) and the mind of sinful nature (i.e., all the sinful traits [not character] we inherited from our ancestors) are two separate aspects of our human make up.

I believe we are born again without the mind of the old man, but the mind and voice of our sinful nature remains to tempt and harass us until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one.

Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15904
09/20/05 10:02 PM
09/20/05 10:02 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Where do habits we formed before being converted fit in? Also none of the "minds" seem to do any thinking, which seems a bit odd.

Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15905
09/21/05 12:16 AM
09/21/05 12:16 AM
C
Charity  Offline
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In your first post Mike you say we cannot conquor our sinful nature or eliminate it. It depends what you mean by conquor. I know you believe in Ellen White. She and scripture agree that we can and must conquor our sinful nature and bring every thought into captivity to the will of Christ.

Am I off topic? Sorry if I am. I haven't read this very carefully I admit.

Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15906
09/21/05 04:32 AM
09/21/05 04:32 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I didn't see anywhere where Mike said we cannot conquer our sinful flesh, especially I didn't see anything in the first post (unless you mean the first post on some other thread).

Mike wrote this in the post just before yours

quote:
but the mind and voice of our sinful nature remains to tempt and harass us until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one.
This seems pretty clear to me. The flesh remains to tempt us, so that aspect of our sinful nature will never go away. But just because we are tempted does not mean we have to yield.

Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15907
09/21/05 12:55 PM
09/21/05 12:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature. {ST, July 26, 1905 par. 6}

But every one who is Christ's, who has tasted of the powers of the world to come, has crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts. {BEcho, January 15, 1892 par. 7}

Self must be crucified. There must be a thorough transformation of character. {ST, June 26, 1884 par. 8}

Such should let self die; let the carnal mind be crucified. {BTS, August 1, 1912 par. 6}

Let the Holy Spirit come in and expel this unholy passion, which cannot survive in heaven. Let it die; let it be crucified. Open the heart to the attributes of Christ, who was holy, harmless, undefiled. . . . {OHC 234.3}

We have great victories to gain, and a heaven to lose if we do not gain them. The carnal heart must be crucified; for its tendency is to moral corruption, and the end thereof is death. {AG 312.5}

When the grace of God takes possession of the heart, it is seen that the inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong must be crucified. A new life, under new control, must begin in the soul.{MYP 68.3}

The conclusion is that self, the old nature, the flesh, the carnal mind, the carnal heart, the old character with its unholy passions and inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong – all are crucified at conversion. So they are all synonyms.

Besides these uses, of course the words "nature" and "flesh" can refer to our physical nature (the body) in a general sense, that is, Adam before sin had a human nature and was flesh.

About this crucifixion that must take place, of course it is not a once-for-all event but a process which will only be finished at Christ's coming, because of the sinful suggestions of Satan, against which we must be constantly on guard.

The Bible says Christ will change our body when He comes, and I couldn't find any quote saying that He will change our nature. Is there such a quote?

Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? #15908
09/21/05 01:38 PM
09/21/05 01:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The argument above is not a valid argument. The problem is the methdology. Ellen White used a style, which was common in the 19th century, of repeating what she said using other words or expressions. This style can be found in almost any of her writings. If you just pick something at random, the chances are very likely you will see this, especially if she is explaining some concept. The fact that she repeats herself with other expressions should not be used as an argument that the words used are interchangeable or have exactly the same meaning.

For example, consider a couple of quote using the word "self".

quote:
Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature. {ST, July 26, 1905 par. 6}

Such should let self die; let the carnal mind be crucified. {BTS, August 1, 1912 par. 6}

Using the suggested methodology would lead us to the conclusion that "self" = "the old disobedient nature" or "the carnal mind". This would be an erroneous conclusion, because unfallen Adan had a self, as has been pointed out. However, unfallen Adam did not have an old disobedient nature nor a carnal mind, which serves to show the limitations of this methodology.

Regarding our nature being changed, it depends on whether the "character" meaning for nature is being used, or the "flesh" meaning. For example, the statement "Christ took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature" is dealing with His flesh. That nature (i.e. He was transformed, so no longer partook of our sinful nature) changed upon His resurrection, as will those who are raised in the first resurrection, which is to say the same thing as saying that the flesh of all believers will change. However our characters will not be changed by the resurrection, so if "nature" is being used with that meaning in mind, such a statement could not be made.

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