Mike,

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Our five sense of touch, taste, smell, sight, and sound are aspects of human beings that are perverted by sinful nature. It twists our innocent and legitimate needs (i.e., appetitets and passions) and then communicates them, via the central nervous system, as unholy suggestions and feelings. It's a whole body process, involving every organ.

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“Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Gal. 5:19-21).

This text makes clear that the word “flesh” refers mainly to the mind. Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, are no twisting of legitimate needs communicated as unholy suggestions and feelings to the mind. It is the opposite which is true – these things originate in the mind and then find expression through the body.

I would define appetites as needs (physical) and passions as desires (physical or otherwise). All of them must be under the control of reason. Needs/appetites are legitimate (need for food and drink) and desires/passions can be legitimate or sinful. Legitimate desires would be correct sex, correct ambition, correct anger, etc; sinful desires would be depraved appetite, corrupt sexual desires, the incorrect desire for material possessions (love of money), the incorrect desire for power (self-exaltation, pride, envy, jealousy), incorrect anger, etc.

We are naturally born with many sinful passions/desires (which constitute sinful traits of character) and the lower nature (inclination and impulse) seeks to satisfy them. However, the higher nature (reason and principle) must deny them until they are finally eliminated from the character.

"Instead of being governed by enlightened reason, refined taste, or sensitive consciences, the lower qualities of the mind held the guiding reins. Virtue and principle had no controlling power." {RH, March 11, 1873 par. 7}

"Satan's constant temptations are designed to weaken man's government over his own heart, to undermine his power of self-control. He leads man to break the bands which connect him in holy, happy union with his Maker.Then, when he is disconnected from God, passion obtains control over reason, and impulse over principle, and he becomes sinful in thought and action, his judgment is perverted, his reason seems to be enfeebled, and he needs to be restored to himself by being restored to God by a correct view of himself in the light of God's word."--Lt 24, 1890. {1MCP 228}

"A noble character is the result of self-discipline, of the subjection of the lower to the higher nature". {Ed 57.4}

"The lower nature, with all its inclinations, must be subdued and crucified, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. It is absolutely necessary for Christians to keep the body under, bringing it into subjection, and uprooting every affection and impulse which is contrary to the will of God. The food which we eat will help or hinder us in doing this." {14MR 297.2}

"Propensity" has a negative connotation. "Tendency" is neutral. Normally when we think of inherited traits, these are thought of in a neutral way, not a negative way, whereas cultivated traits (bad traits) are thought of as negative. Hence my suggestion that "propensity" is a better fit than "tendency".

As I mentioned, this is tangential to the main point, which is "Inherited sinful propensities reside in the flesh, not the mind; they are inherited. That which is inherited is passed on genetically." This was in response to this statement:

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Inherited and cultivated sinful propensities - selfishness, covetousness, pride, envy, etc. reside in the mind. Therefore, when a sinful propensity is cut away from the character, it is cut away from the life – there is no way it could remain in the body.

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Inherited and cultivated sinful propensities, or tendencies, are two completely different things. Inherited sinful tendencies are not passed from mind to mind but passed genetically.

We've been talking about "propensity" and "tendency" to where I've lost track of what your train of thought was.

They are passed genetically to the brain.

I see things very similarly to what Mike is presenting (maybe identically). Christ had the same flesh we had, as was tempted in the same way by the same temptations, but He never yielded to temptation. Physically His mind was no different than ours; if you could to a biopsy on His brain as an infant or look at His DNA you wouldn't see anything different. However, His mind was unique. He had the mind of Christ, a mind determined to do the will of God, regardless of the cost to Himself.

Gentlemen,

The body is servant of the mind, not the other way around. The mind reacts first, then it sends a message to the body.
You get nervous, then you start to sweat. You get angry, then your face gets red. And so on.
Does any man’s body know the difference between an unknown 18-year-old girl and his18-year-old sister? No, his mind does, and his body reacts (or doesn’t react) accordingly.
The main component in sin is not the body, but the mind. Your body just does what your mind tells it to do. (“The flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God”).
So what I see Ellen White saying is that in any given situation, or temptation, two aspects of our mind are involved – the higher nature (reason and principle) and the lower nature (inclination, impulse, desire – the part of the mind related to pleasure). Some of the pleasures we seek to satisfy are legitimate, some are perverted, because we are inclined to wrong. Thus, we find pleasure in venting our anger, in being admired by others, in exerting power or control over others, in seeking to satisfy our needs no matter what may happen to others – and so on (but these impulses are in the mind, not in the body). So, we have good impulses and evil impulses, and even the good impulses may become evil if they are gratified in a wrong way or moment. This lower nature existed in Adam, but he had only good impulses and they were under the perfect control of reason. In us, sinful beings, this lower nature is what the Bible calls “flesh”, the “flesh” that must be crucified, because it comprises many evil impulses.

“The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words ‘flesh’ or ‘fleshly’ or ‘carnal lusts’ embrace the lower, corrupt nature... We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? ... The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme” {AH 127.2}

What is the solution for our problem? Asking God to remove from us the pleasure we find in sin. Once a GC vice-president, James Harris, visited Brazil and, in a sermon, he told something I’ve never forgotten. He said that when he was converted, he wanted to get baptized, but he couldn’t quit smoking. And he prayed and prayed, “Lord, help me quit smoking”, but nothing happened. Then one day he realized that he was praying the wrong prayer. And he started to pray, “Lord, remove from me the pleasure I find in smoking”, and then he was able to quit the habit and get baptized. Why? Because he no longer found any pleasure in smoking.
We can’t of ourselves avoid loving sin, but God can remove the love of sin from our hearts by implanting in us His love – the divine nature. Then the evil impulse will die, will cease to exist, although we must be connected to God moment by moment, for Satan is always seeking to implant evil impulses in us again.

“In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the ruling principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, and ennobles the affections.” {AA 551.2}

Rosangela, it appears that we have each stated our positions clearly. I believe sinful suggestions originate in our fallen flesh nature and you believe they originate in our sinful mind.

You also seem to believe that all desires for sin must be removed before we can experience peace and freedom, which implies that true victory isn't possible until we can no longer be tempted, that being tempted is evidence we haven't been set free.

Or, did I misunderstand your position?

That's a very nice, post, Rosangela. Very well written.

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The body is servant of the mind, not the other way around. The mind reacts first, then it sends a message to the body.

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In the example of the sisters, the body reacted first (the eye) and sent the message to the brain (hey look! an 18 yr old female!) And the brain interpreted the message (that's my sister). So it seems to me that the body reacts first by gathering information through the 5 senses, and sends it to the brain for processing.

I agree with what you wrote regarding higher/lower natures for the most part, except for the conclusions at the end. My understanding of what you wrote is that you feel that our temptations will lessen as we grow close to Christ (please correct me if I'm wrong) whereas I believe they will increase.

I believe they will increase for two reasons. One is that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we can bear. As we grow closer to Him, there is more than we can bear.

Secondly, as we grow closer to Christ there are temptations which we perceive that we didn't even notice before which deal with issues which are subtle and more difficult to overcome. For example, being healed from the Laodicean condition.

According to the perspective presented at the bottom of your post, it seems to me the logical extrapolation would be that Christ was not tempted at all, because there was nothing but love in His heart. There would have been no need for Him to crucify self. This is what seems to me to be the logical conclusion of the principle that as we grow closer to Christ are temptations grow ever weaker. Given that Christ was perfectly close to Christ, His temptations would have been 0 (like a limit approaching 0, if you're familiar with Calculus).

OTOH, as I view things, Christ's temptations grew ever more difficult. He had temptations throughtout His life which were preparing Him for His ministry. With every victory He became stronger, ready to face a more difficult test. The temptation in the wilderness was the most difficult test that had been seen until that time. The most difficult test of all was Gethsemanee, and finally the cross, where our fate and the fate of heaven trembled in the balance. Christ did have a self to be crucified, which He did throughout His life, an incomprehensibly difficult task.